The Future of Career Growth, Leadership, and AI w/ Carlee Wolfe | S2E6

Full Episode Transcript

This is the full recorded conversation from The Human Protocol Podcast, published by The Human Protocol Group. © 2026 The Human Protocol Group. Please link to and attribute the original episode when referencing this conversation.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (00:01.806)
Today's conversation is about career growth, not the version most of us were thought. Because the old model was really simple, climb the ladder, collect titles, keep going. But that model is breaking. Welcome to The Human Protocol, the podcast about staying human while building the future. I am your host, Mykel Salomon. People everywhere.

are questioning their careers quietly and deeply. Job descriptions are outdated the moment we start writing them. AI is reshaping work, but not identity. Losing a title can still shake a sense of self. And leaders need a new compass, not a new org chart. We are living in what Carly calls the messy middle.

between who we are and who we are becoming. This episode isn't about climbing higher, it is about evolving wisely. My guest today is Carly Wolf. Welcome to the podcast, Carly.

Carlee Wolfe (01:16.743)
Thank you so much for having me. I love that intro. Messy middle. We're in it. We're in it for sure.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (01:20.258)
Thank you. Right? Thanks for taking the time to be with us today. And before we kick this conversation off, I want to see if you can give all of us a brief introduction about who Carly is, where have you been, where you're coming from, and where you are today.

Carlee Wolfe (01:39.845)
Absolutely. So I've spent my 20 plus year career and as you mentioned, HR, doing work in talent management or effectiveness leadership development. So basically running the gamut of anything that touches culture and how people are actually moving in their careers in organizations and have thoroughly enjoyed that work. I've done that for profit nonprofit, and I've also done some consulting and I'm currently at Hyatt hotels, leading our integrated talent.

management and org effect of his group, which encompasses many of those areas of focus and love the work. also, live in Baltimore, Maryland. I serve on a number of nonprofit boards and relevant for this conversation would be the city Baltimore workforce development board and also do career coaching. So one could say organizations and careers all day, every day. I love this stuff. It's a big part of my life and something I'm very, very passionate about, especially as we are continuing to evolve. So

Yeah, a little bit about me.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (02:40.084)
Awesome, awesome. Thanks for sharing all that. And that's all kind of on the professional side, and you touched a little bit on the personal side. And I always like to kick things off also with kind of a more personal question to our guests, which is, when we remove everything that you just said, everything that LinkedIn knows about Carly, who is Carly at her core?

Carlee Wolfe (03:02.013)
Very good question. am maybe like two things come to mind. One is that I am a learner, lifelong learner, not to be cheesy about that, whether it's skills or just life. I've moved around a lot in life. I love traveling. I think there's always something to tape from experience and thinking about who we are and where we can continue to go. So a learner and

A developer, mean, meaning, yes, you can pull it outside of resume, but I love, I just, I do, love connecting with people and also their journeys, that like human element of like, where are people going? You know, you heard my, I love the LinkedIn version, but I also do a lot in sport. Like I coach volleyball and, and these are just things I just love the pursuit. love people finding their space. And if I can be a part of that in conversation, you know, like I'm that friend, I'm that friend in the friend group. They're like, that knows about where people have been and where they're going.

and how they're developing. So yeah, that's me. I'm a learner and a developer, but really just trying to take life in one day at a time and making the most of it. And that's how I try to make the most of it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (04:12.374)
Love that, thanks for sharing that with us. think being a learner is something that we all can relate to and that should be what the rest of our lives should be, right? We're always learning, especially in times like today. And developing people and being part of their journey, that's a magical thing when you're part of, you know, other people's life and helping them to get where they want to be. So it's some sort of recognition that you're doing the right thing, right? So.

Carlee Wolfe (04:40.167)
Sure.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (04:40.174)
That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that, Carly. And what shaped you how you see growth today, right? I wanted to see when you get started very early in your career, things were very much, pretty much very different than they are today. So how that transition and that period of time really shaped how you see growth today.

Carlee Wolfe (04:43.485)
Appreciate it.

Carlee Wolfe (05:06.012)
Mm-hmm. I can go back, maybe I'll marry like the who am I and like what are the intersex with the professional side and I'll go back even further which is, you know, as a kid growing up, a lot of us find like our communities or our spaces but sometimes some of us like don't find those things and for me I was always toggling between the two. I never like really sat in a place I was like this is me, these are my people 100 % and so that kind of created this like passion of me of.

like that inclusivity of wanting to belong and to be a part of something and to be in that belonging and part of something like my whole self, like not just like, there's a little piece of me or a little piece of that part of me, but the whole self. I think that that, and it took me honestly, probably until it was like last year to really kind of hone in on that to be able to answer your question of like beginning of my career, what did development mean? And I think it all rests in that space. Development to me is like that becoming, like becoming self, becoming professional.

And a lot of times, especially in work, we're sort of in these like constructs of what a leader should be or what a professional should be or what a project manager should be. And all that's great. Like I subscribe to understanding constructs and models and all that sort of good stuff, just because it gives us some clarity perhaps or a target. But at the end of the day, we are still so unique in how we interact with others and how we show up. And so for me, development is that marriage of like, where do I want to go?

And how do I get there and how do I still be myself in that so that I can feel whole in what is development? I want people to enjoy development and I want it to be about them and what's important to them while also bringing value to the places that they're trying to evolve in or through. So that's how I think about it. And I think that that core part has not changed. I think I've like come to define that, but what has changed, cause you asked like from where I started to now is maybe the pace of that.

the accessibility of what learning looks like, the specificity of what learning looks like, and we're in a time and facing a time where some of those answers, we don't have the answers yet, right? They're like, where do I go and what's the specificity of what that looks like? So it's uncomfortable for a lot of people that is, but I think that's what's different. So what? Yeah. Totally. Yep. For sure.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (07:08.662)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (07:13.602)
Back to the messy middle, right? Where we all are. Back to the messy middle where we all are. We're still figuring out things ourselves. Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (07:22.781)
And I get like, yeah, it's messy. And it's like, I think it's messy because we're in that like paradox of like, well, what's defined versus what could be. Maybe the messy middle is actually like a really rewarding and interesting space for us to all be in because we are able to actually write what's going on. And I think the pace of change isn't going to slow down. So I don't, maybe we're entering a new space of like continual openness and that for some people is a lot of freedom that scares a lot of people. And so maybe.

You know, we're talking about this today is like, how do you find comfort in either one? But I love the idea of reauthoring and taking a different set of charge for where we're headed.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:03.126)
It's an opportunity life has given us to, like you say, reauthoring this new future, right? For decades, we have the playbooks ready that we were just following processes and steps. Right now, as we are all trying to figure out where are we going next, we do have an opportunity to really write the rules and write how this new future will look like.

Carlee Wolfe (08:24.455)
Yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:27.2)
And you are absolutely right when you said for some people may be scary. And I get that, right? Depending on where you're coming from or who you are, you may want more structure processes or things ready. For others, maybe like yourself and myself. I think this is an exciting time where we can get everything that we know today and transform that and shape it in a way that we think it's going to be our new future. But it's, you know, it's all

Carlee Wolfe (08:45.959)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:57.225)
going to be how people are approaching life as a whole.

Carlee Wolfe (09:04.061)
For sure. I love the timing of our conversation. just got done doing a, you could call it like a wellness, which you will call like a wellness experience. went to Baravol, which is this kind of like wellbeing retreat and had an opportunity to spend some time. One is shutting down and being quiet, but two, exploring things that are important for me as a person and what I want to do next. And I, what I took away from the experience, both the programs that I went to, but the people I met.

in my own self-reflection is like what we're talking about right now is the future is open. And I think this is life. Like we literally cannot subscribe what happens tomorrow, the next week, the next month, the next year. And I think work sometimes can become the place that there's a construct that we can lean in on for better or for worse. Yet I think we all want to be who we are in our best selves, which is not within a construct. And I bring up this experience because I sat a lot in the space of

Okay, well, what do I want my future to be? Like this conversation, like where do I want to develop? Where do I want to grow? And I still am figuring it out, but I think the opportunity that I landed on is like, how do you, what's the feeling I want to have in like six months to a year? Like, what are the things I want to be impacting and being proud of? And that at the end of the day, I'm like, yes, this is, I am being myself. I am contributing my best self. And by the way, from a work standpoint, I'm doing good work. What does that look, and feel like?

How do I back out of that? And therefore, what do I need to learn? What do I need to experience? Who do I need to talk to? And so I think that that's where we're at. And I think that that's where we're going to be. So for me, the space and the quiet gave me my own clarity because I think I've been running around it, not running around, but every day like, all right, what's next? What's next? And I say, Cheryl, mainly to land the point of even in the gray, we can still create our clarity and put our posts out in the ground, right? We can say, here's where I'm shooting for.

Maybe the posts just become a little bit closer and we examine the posts a little bit more frequently, but we can still have that. And I think it is important to have some of that clarity because that's where we have a knowing, we have our goals, we know where we can succeed, what we're learning from. So long way of just saying, this is one way I've recently been thinking about it, but I'm with you totally of, think this is an opportunity and how do people take advantage of that and feel good in it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (11:24.61)
No, and I'm glad that you had that time for you to bring that clarity back to our very busy lives. Because sometimes, as you were saying, we're just doing day by day, thinking about the next day, and not taking the time to really think medium, long term, what is it that I want to do? What is it what I want to accomplish? Not only from the professional side, but also from the personal side. And those moments of

what I call peace, right? That remove the noise from our daily life brings a lot of clarity to try to seek and see the future in a different way, the way we need it. So I think, yeah, we all need more more times like that, some more wellness time for sure. It does help.

Carlee Wolfe (12:02.834)
Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (12:09.169)
Yeah. And you said something important too, which is you said in more noise. think that the more, you know, you and I talk, you know, had a little prep on this. We talked about like how the world's changing. We're very passionate about this and, and, and the pace of which that's happening. And I think, and I think that part of the pace is important. Like we want to evolve and move. I think part of the pace is also what you just mentioned, which is noise, right? We're still specifically around AI, figuring out so many things, even within organizations.

Yes, we're moving forward and at scale we're sort of like, it working? And so I also encourage people to, yes, like take what we're talking about and think about where you can evolve and move into the gray, the messy middle and find your moments of calm, if you will, or intentionality in the noise, because sometimes there is just noise. And if you're intentional, right, you can cut through that and you can still, again, back to charting your path, be on that path for yourself.

and moving forward, right? We're not talking about pause to be stuck. We're talking about pause to be intentional. And when things are noisy and fast, I think it's really hard to find that space and time to pause, but it is so important. And so I talked about frequency of planning. Maybe it's also frequency of pausing.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (13:24.878)
I love that, Carly. Yes. Frequency of pausing, for sure. And I think part of the challenge is it's...

Carlee Wolfe (13:36.029)
it

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (13:36.792)
For some people, they are expecting life to happen to them instead of them running and fighting for what their future will look like. And this is part of what this conversation I want to talk to you today, which is people needs to think about what is it that they want to do. Who do they want to become, right? Because life will continue to happen. Time is passing by.

Carlee Wolfe (13:42.813)
Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (13:48.998)
Mm-hmm.

Carlee Wolfe (13:58.513)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (14:06.766)
And we are kind of the architects of really our future, but we need to think it, we need to plan it. We need to try to understand who we are and who we want to become.

And then how we're gonna get there, right? But all starts with the work that we need to do ourselves and that those moments of clarity, those moments of pause help us to really focus on ourself and kind of understanding where are we gonna next, right? Or where we're gonna go next. And the more AI accelerates, Carly, the more...

Carlee Wolfe (14:36.059)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (14:48.628)
that it has been clear to me that really the traditional career ladder, it's phasing away, in a way. It was clear until a couple of years ago, and then AI came to disrupt that part as well. And we all have been trained to chase promotions, It's really tried to get to the next level.

Carlee Wolfe (14:57.841)
Yeah, well.

Carlee Wolfe (15:06.045)
you

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (15:16.564)
And we understood, we had an idea on how this could happen. But now AI got here and it's really disrupting how we are gonna continue to grow as professionals because the traditional career ladders, it's phasing away. And I see these as a big shift from how we used to be promoted. And I'm curious to see how you see things today.

from your lenses and what will happen next.

Carlee Wolfe (15:51.933)
Yeah, yeah. Well, one, I also want to invite the other side of coin. We've talked about like the clarity that comes with the career ladder. And I think for some people, that's the case. And I also think for a lot of people, also, it's this construct that we're like, how do we play the game? How do we win here? Especially, you know, in big organizations or ones that have been established, right? You're like, right, think I'm doing all the things for promotion, but what's working? So maybe on one end, you we don't talk about like there's the clarity or

Excuse me, the clarity of that. Maybe on the other end, we do a little celebration of like, I mean, maybe it's time to also like say goodbye to a system that didn't serve everybody. And maybe this is opportunity where it's in service more to the to you, your like your individual where you're trying to go. So I don't maybe like one happy note of all or like one thing we get to also say goodbye to in the transformation. But

What am I seeing in careers? I think it is the fluidity that you and I are talking about. think that roles, and this is like kind of on a spectrum, right? Cause some roles have significantly changed and some are still emerging or thinking of changing as we head into AI, right? Use something like maybe I'm in tech and I write, do code for apps. Like that's hugely disruptive right now, but maybe I'm in healthcare and I still connect with patients every single day. That's not as disruptive.

nor maybe will it, right? We still need that hand-to-hand touch, but how it enables its job is differently. So I do want to acknowledge everyone's in a different place, but I think a few things that people can be thinking about for careers is something you and I have both been alluding to, which is where do you see yourself and where do you want to be? And maybe an added question to that is like, where do you see yourself having impact? What I love about this question, and I'm going to...

draw it actually into some of the nonprofit work I do. Every nonprofit has a mission. Like what's the impact you're wanting to have? Often some communities or people that we're serving. Maybe you start to think about your career that way. What is your mission? Like what is it that you want to leave in your work that's important to you? And I'm not suggesting it has to be like this sort of profound and changing the world sort of thing. It could be just literally, I want to be the best at...

Carlee Wolfe (18:05.821)
Yeah, making new AI models that have ethics that bring insights to organizations, but ones that are ethical that we can be proud of. Like that's my mission. Like that's great. So what is your mission? Where is your impact? And starting with that and then saying, what are the skills I want to build? Some of those might be some of the traditional things that we've been used to, but some of them might be getting really curious about how do I actually use AI? How do I transform what I'm doing through AI?

And not AI as an app or a tech, but an AI as a mindset. I was in a program the other day where we started talking about AI as like a moldable clay, or I like to think about it as old school, like, you know, log into your computer and there's like blinking cursor, like, okay, like what's next? That's what AI is. Like it's what problem are you trying to solve and how are you molding it into a totally different solution or ideas or innovations?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (18:46.06)
Right, Mercer.

Carlee Wolfe (18:58.779)
that you've never thought of before, right? And so to me, that's that mind. It's a mindset. It's not a thing. and so how are you developing that mindset? How are you talking with others in your industry or your role that maybe are ahead of the curve and are thinking about what's different? Or maybe you become that person that you and I are talking about this right now. We're kind of ahead of this dialogue. Well, and we don't have all the answers. We have some thoughts, we have some experience, but, that's where everyone else is at too. So I also in offering networking and learning,

be the person that's asking the questions and having the conversation because this is back to where we started. This is a time where we're all building. So that also means not everyone has all the answers. Like literally, we are all figuring it out. So maybe those are a few nuggets to think about when we talk about careers of the future, which are different types of questions or different ways of applying. But the last thing I'll just say is make sure you see yourself in all of those answers, right? What is it that you wanna stand for, that you wanna do? And I think that's what's

different and allows you to be different and find opportunities that are different in careers that haven't existed in the past.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (20:06.166)
Love it. I really think that we all need to look at the future and how we're going to make an impact in our careers based on the value that we're going to start adding to our organizations, right? Where do you see yourself as adding value, as a problem solver? Because the future will be more about solving problems than anything else.

Carlee Wolfe (20:15.579)
Yeah, Elliot.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (20:28.254)
and how your skills, how's your creativity will allow you to continue to succeed by being part of that equation.

which is part of solving a problem and you have been essay in there. And I love what you just say, be curious, right? Ask the questions, start asking and start being and putting yourself out there. Because I really think that while we don't know all the answers and we don't, everything start with the question, everything start by you being curious and you being also flexible, right? I think this new future is really, we are gonna be doing a little bit about everything.

We need to continue to stay hungry about learning, not only the technology, but also how we do things, right? And how we can leverage those technologies to solve real business problems. And when I talk to my friends and when I talk to people, that's also part of the conversation that I bring to them. It's remain curious, right? Be part of the challenge.

and hopefully you're gonna be part of the solution as well. But stay there, be part of it, right? Because if you're part of it, there is a chance for you. The problem is when you're not part of it. If you're not part of the problem, you're not gonna be part of the solution, right? So the problem we all need to go through, but be there, put yourself out there and be flexible. I think this new feature, it's what's gonna require more from us.

Carlee Wolfe (21:40.411)
Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (21:47.207)
Totally.

Carlee Wolfe (21:52.849)
Yes, yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (22:06.24)
And from all levels, Carly, individual contributors to leaders. This is really shaping and changing and transforming all levels of our professional careers. It's really, I don't think in the future it won't matter anymore. I see more of individual contributors and leaders kind of interjecting and working more closely than in the past, for sure.

Carlee Wolfe (22:31.761)
Yep. Yep. I agree. I agree. think, you, you inspired something. You said like, you know, be a part of the solution. And I think this is part of the, maybe the mindset too of what shifting when you talk about careers, like something that's something that's happening right now, you, if, if you're in HR or some space, maybe like leadership spaces, you starting to hear these terms around like skills marketplace, where you might hear this kind of on LinkedIn. It's already been in a tier point on economy.

Right. You live in LinkedIn. It's the algorithm that drives how we're all found and how we connect with just skills. so if that's like the career currency and concept, I like to take that another further and I'm going to marry your solving the problem. like to think of in, cities, like almost I like go to this like place in like Europe where they have these big markets and then there's like these stalls everywhere. And what have you thought about your organization or your business or your customers as sort of like all these stalls and they all have like problems that you're looking to solve.

And it could be individual stalls or it could be like, well, here's the food section or here's like the woodworking section or the whole market itself, right? It depends if you're solving an individual problem or systems problem, but how are you taking inventory of the skills that you have or want to build? And then basically you're going out to that then market to say, listen, I see that you have this problem. I have these skills. How can I help you?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (23:38.861)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (23:55.31)
Mm-hmm.

Carlee Wolfe (23:55.365)
And I think that is the shift of the future. Some of it's maybe things we do today, like entrepreneurs or solo business owners. But I think it's also within an organization where we're tied to roles. This goes back to Chris roles that become career paths. Well, what if it's just about the skills that I provide and the problems I'm going to solve? Maybe that role then that job becomes more of like a multiple contracting job within a company. I don't know. I think these things are happening. I think it could evolve. But the point I'm trying to make and that we're tying together is like

one, what's possibility of the future, but two, when I think about my career and your point about solving problems, maybe it's not the traditional career path, but it's the, what's the value that I bring to the problems that I'm solving. And I think we all want to be in service of something. And that's also the, I think the magic that ties it all in.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (24:41.386)
Absolutely, now more than ever, we're really gonna be in the service of something. And the more we remain curious and the more we see ourselves as problem solvers and seeing our challenges as really opportunities, then if there is an opportunity, if you see something as an opportunity, I'm sure you're gonna think it enough to try to find the solution for it.

Carlee Wolfe (25:06.555)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:06.606)
And I really wish most people think about challenges and problems in the future in this way, that A, no, you're not bringing a problem to me. No, you're bringing an opportunity, an opportunity probably for me to do something different, for me to add value. And I think all of us needs more of that.

Carlee Wolfe (25:23.901)
Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny you're talking about, I thinking about in public transportation, there's a lot of, well, in airports, you like see something, say something. Well, now maybe it's like, something, solve something. The continual pursuit of seeing and solving, maybe it's a little...

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:34.51)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:41.752)
See something, sell something. You should trademark that, Carly, because I love it. I love it.

Carlee Wolfe (25:46.973)
Start and say. See what the people have to say if it connects or not.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:51.086)
I love it, I love it, it, because it's really everything that we're discussing today and how I see the future too.

Carlee Wolfe (25:58.949)
And it could be personally, like, if I see something in myself that I want to grow, then, like, let's solve that. Like, how do I go learn that skill or get that perspective? Like, it can...

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (26:07.02)
Yeah, don't get stuck. Do something to solve it to overcome it, Amazing. Love it.

Carlee Wolfe (26:10.203)
Yeah, yeah,

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (26:15.086)
Carly, I want to talk next about, and I know that you've talked about the three Cs, right, clarity, confidence, and curiosity. And when I hear and when I listen to that and how we can apply that, that's kind of a framework for navigating uncertainty, for example, without losing ourself. Because a lot of people, they struggle. Very talented people, and sometimes they

struggles not because they lack the talent but because they really lack clarity on their thoughts on the challenges that they have ahead of them. So can you tell us a little bit and walk us through the three C's and what does it mean and how people can apply it?

Carlee Wolfe (27:10.557)
Yeah. And thanks for the intro. think you did a really good job of that because it's the intent of the model is also not to be linear and that one step has to happen for the other, but sort of what's the scenario that's happening in front of me and that I can use these words to diagnose how I get, I'll use the term maybe unstuck. But I'll walk through the model just to keep it simple around, you I'll start with curiosity, which is something you and I have been talking about. How can I be curious about what it is I'm trying to solve or curious about what's unsettling or curious about

where I want to go next, right? don't, it's so funny. I think when we're in the pursuit of something that's next, let's just keep with our career theme, like what's next in my career. We assume that we should know what that is right away. I don't know why. Maybe that's just our like natural human draw to having, know what? Yeah, right, to have that answer. Cause it feels good. Why not? Why wouldn't I want the answer?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (27:55.97)
Human nature, right? Yeah, human nature probably part of it.

Carlee Wolfe (28:05.341)
Um, and I think if we start with that curiosity or have curiosity around what we're doing, I think it opens up the doors in so many ways. So from a career standpoint, it's not what's the next step, right? Traditional ladder, but where do I want to go? Where do I want to have impact? What's in my way? Um, why don't I feel comfortable or confident about it? Right? These things start to open up, I'll call it that divergent thinking and the clarity coming in of starting to think about with the questions that I have.

Where is it that I want to go? What's that target? What's that direction? What's the area that I want to have impact on? We talked about servant. Where do I want to be in service to, but really spending some time of what is important. Where can I see myself having impact? How does that feel? And through clarity, we can be much more targeted in what we're doing and how we're going about it. And that could be things from day to day, a value add for ourselves to the longterm where we want to head and what we're doing.

And confidence being really that driver for I know what I want to, where I'm going or how I'm going about it. And I'm making it happen. And I think this is a part that gets left off a ton is the self confidence of I can make it happen despite what, whether it's the systems around me, the narratives I've been told, the narrative that I've previously written for myself. These are all things that end up starting to like have that soft voice in the back of your head of like, maybe I actually can't do it.

or I've never done it before, or this person couldn't do it, but with pure confidence, right? I think we're able to step into what is next. So that's kind of the model in short, but I think again, for me, goes back to, kind of, you can use it in a lot of ways of like, if I have curiosity, can maybe have clarity and then I have confidence, but I also think it's diagnostic, which is I'm trying to make this move, but I keep feeling stuck. Well, why is that?

Well, maybe it's confidence. I haven't really bought that in for myself. Or maybe it's clarity because I'm going after too many things. But I think it applies in so many things in our life right now.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (30:05.986)
Yeah, absolutely. And when I look and hear you going through that, it's stuck with curiosity because I think curiosity is really the new superpower. The more curious we all are, the more we're going to try to identify and learn new things. And especially in this new AI era, We better have questions than pending answers, right?

Carlee Wolfe (30:18.076)
and

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (30:35.92)
And that's what we were just talking about. If you remain curious, you're always going to have questions. And then the questions should lead you, hopefully, to answers or solutions or to whatever you're trying to find next. But it's really start with you being curious enough to start asking questions. And I think a lot of people, get stuck because sometimes they're afraid.

Carlee Wolfe (30:55.517)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (31:00.608)
of asking questions, thinking that the question that they're asking maybe people know and that should be something that they know. And that's what I always tell everybody. There is no dumb questions. Every question is very important. The more that we don't know, the more questions we should be asking. And I think that's important.

Carlee Wolfe (31:21.137)
Yeah. Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (31:26.833)
I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm going to go to maybe like a bigger note on this, which is in the space that we're in and how fast we're moving. think if we don't have enough people that remain curious, I think we're going to look back and say, I wish I was more curious. I always use the example of like social media. think there's a time where you're like, all right, everybody in and all the times and all the things. And you fast forward and you're like thinking, I wish we had been curious about what that did for, you

little kids who are developing their brains. I wish we had thought about what that meant in terms of like influencing certain agendas, et cetera. And so I think that the curiosity also protects the future, the good future that I think we are all trying to build. And so if nothing else for curiosity for yourself, to your point of one, there are no dumb questions. I think everyone should be curious because it's how we learn. But two, for the greater good of like how we actually all as

a collective human society move through this transformation, think Being Curious makes us better in how we intentionally build what the future will eventually become.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (32:34.804)
And we also can apply that to our personal lives, right? The last thing we want is to look into the future, into a few years from now, and say, wow, I should have asked this question. Wow, I should have tried to learn this new tool. And the past is the past. Nothing that you can change that. So it's really what you start building today and what you changed today. And it can be really a small step, but take the steps.

Carlee Wolfe (32:39.645)
Totally.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (33:03.948)
towards a better human tomorrow, right? And that has to start really today with questions, with being curious, and remain flexible, because we're going to need a lot more flexibility in the future. Yeah. Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (33:08.06)
Yep.

Carlee Wolfe (33:18.663)
Totally. 100%. I also think, know, Jeremy mentioned this sort of AI mindset. think curiosity is the driver of AI. I think in the sense of what can it do for me? How can it solve things? How does it benefit others? What can I be having impact on? Like these are the questions. Cause without the questions, I think we're losing our hands on autonomy and ownership of what, how AI serves us in that.

delivery. I mean, it's always in service to us, right? There's a, there's a, there's an owner of the outcome. I just mean, I think curiosity is a big part of that AI mindset, right? It's not given to us. We help build and construct.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (33:57.922)
Right, right, Yeah, totally agree with that. Yeah, let's continue to remain curious, because that's definitely something that's gonna continue to be needed in the future. And I want to, I would like us to get to this next segment, Carly.

Carlee Wolfe (34:12.367)
Mm-hmm.

Carlee Wolfe (34:19.643)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (34:21.73)
You know, the name of this podcast is The Human Protocol. We talk about everything related to AI technology, but from very deeply human lenses, right? This is what the podcast is really about. And I really want to talk next about human-centered leadership, right, in this new feature with AI.

We are implementing a lot more algorithms into our organizations, into our process, right? Pre-screening, resume screening. HR is using ATS and other AI solutions, right? Where AI can screen thousands of resumes, rank, predict. But AI doesn't care. And...

Carlee Wolfe (35:04.827)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (35:11.796)
I am curious to get your thoughts on everything that you know and that you're seeing today and how organizations are leveraging AI, for example, to screen candidates. Are you concerned of bias? Are you concerned of good candidates being left behind?

without the human reviewing resumes? Do you have any concern on that? Or you see more pros than cons at this time?

Carlee Wolfe (35:42.833)
Yeah. It's a good question because I think it also highlights the complexity of the answer for this, but also anything that we're like, is the human coming out of this equation? I think in spirit, I like the idea of adding some, we'll call it like non-biased perspective to the recruiting selection process initially. Right. We're in a time where there haven't been enough disruptions at the front end of

what the market looks like. if you're in the career market, you apply for a job. In some cases, there might be thousands of people in there. A human is just not going to go through all of those. And so they might find the best of, but if we can create something that actually cuts out all the folks that are like, I'm just applying for 9,000 jobs because I'm just applying for every job, even if it's not applicable for me.

but gets to the Sallys or the Johns of the world who are like, no, I'm actually like applicable for this job. And just because I'm at the bottom of the stack, don't, and you don't get to me that I don't get them to have a foot in the door. Like those are the things that I think are helpful and can be solved for. To add to the complexity though, I think on the other side from the candidate perspective, and this is where I have concern is I don't think every candidate is also equipped necessarily to be applying in the AI world.

So there's a term that I've used, but I think it's validated in a lot of spaces I've been in the past year, Intel and acquisition is like AI in the AI. So instead of sort of like looking at yourself as a candidate and best positioning yourself for the job, which you do, right? spend, people are spending time around, okay, like let me AI my resume. Let me put this through the ATS AI tool. Let me like add these keywords, right? You're creating a system to get you in.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (37:19.726)
Right.

Carlee Wolfe (37:25.613)
And in some cases, I was at a conference a couple of months ago, people are sharing about in absence of that human interview, right? People are able also leverage AI to sort of doctor kind of like that initial like screening and experience. And so that's like on the spectrum of people are using it well, but what about the people that aren't trained in that yet or haven't had access to the tools or can't have access to the tools that maybe they can't afford it or because they don't have, they're not in the communities that they're in, they know how to use AI appropriately.

So that's where I do have concern. That's also the bigger question of how are we bringing people, this is big AI question, how are we bringing people along, whether it's communities or people that we work with, to have access, to have understanding, because this is the part where people will get left behind. So I sit in two camps with your question. I think there's a lot of possibilities and power in this. I also think there are some real systematic challenges that we need to be thinking about.

to also have that solve or the reason why we might lean that direction to be inclusive of that. Exactly. Exactly. So I think, and I think that I don't think I know that question is yet to be solved. And this is back to our theme of curiosity. hope lots of people are curious about it the solve sounds really nice and it does on there, but there's another part of the coin that we just haven't solved for yet. And we need to stay on top of that.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:28.534)
Make sure everybody has a shot and an opportunity, Ryan.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:37.677)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:51.598)
You make me think right now, because I haven't thought about that and this angle that you just mentioned for those that they may not have access to the tools, right? And the technology to make their thing prove their resume to be kind of better at ATS. And I never stopped to think about that part, because I always. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Carlee Wolfe (39:14.033)
Yeah, if you don't know how to AI the AI, you're AI'd out.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (39:22.004)
And it's a reality. It is a reality that we better think about if we're trying to make this more a future where everybody has a shot. But currently...

Carlee Wolfe (39:24.785)
Yep. Yep.

Carlee Wolfe (39:35.953)
Yeah. And I don't want to leave this on like a, not trying to, I mean, we're making a point, which is why it's like, to be all inclusive in our thinking. What are all the parts and pieces? But perhaps these are things that we can also help solve. So for example, if I work for a company who has integrated these tools, because my objective is actually to be more inclusive and to bring the candidates forth. Well, should I invest in like a 10 minute video for

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (39:44.502)
Right.

Carlee Wolfe (40:02.045)
candidates to ready their resume for this AI experience? Like, can I actually serve the people that are applying for my jobs to be equipped to make that application happen? I think we've done this in, you know, I'll use Google as an example, back in the day, used to, when you'd apply for a job, they were known for this, when you applied for a job at Google, they would give you insights. They'd be like, here's what we interviewed for. Here's some things you can read on. Like they wanted you to be successful because they wanted the best candidate to come through. They didn't want the...

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (40:26.006)
Ryan.

Carlee Wolfe (40:29.917)
process or their methodology of recruiting to get in the way of the skilled talent that they wanted to bring in. Well, maybe we can do that now with AI. Don't get in the way of the skilled talent. Teach them to make the system, to be in the system and then get them at the door to be able to have the rest of the conversation. So I think you and I are pulling through a good example of like, yes, it's very powerful. Be curious about what's not in the solve that we still need to solve.

And maybe we just need to think about it in non-traditional terms of how to it all happen together.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (41:02.85)
Yeah, that's a good brainstorming activity and it is a challenge, right, as we have been discussing throughout the whole conversation and hopefully we think more about that in the future in a way that we make it better for everyone.

Carlee Wolfe (41:17.553)
Yeah. Well, in the spirit of where we started, said the human part of it. I think this is where the human part continues to evolve, right? We have the tools to make it better, but where does the human innovation need to come in to also think about those things? Cause when you put in this new recruiting process, the AI is not going to say, actually, Carly, now you might be leaving people out, even though this was your objective. No, no, no. That's still the human thinking. You and I are living a human thinking moment over an AI efficiency effectiveness gain.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (41:23.448)
Yeah.

Carlee Wolfe (41:46.587)
And this is where I do think people also should have hope. Where can I continued value in my role in a different way?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (41:55.765)
Absolutely.

And that's still a human challenge, right? The technology is there, will continue to be there, but we still the ones reshaping the processes that we are gonna follow. So it's still our responsibility to try to find a solution for that type of challenge as well. totally agree. Totally agree, Carly. I had questions that I wanted to ask you about the talent and the future of growth, right?

Carlee Wolfe (42:01.607)
Totally.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (42:26.992)
So, and that's something that me personally, I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is what really, what does growth mean, right? When we remove titles from the equation, which...

the way I've been thinking about and in this new future where we all will continue to evolve and learn a little bit more and job descriptions, we're gonna be doing a lot more than what we originally were hired for, right? And I think it's gonna be a lot less about our job titles and more about the value that we're gonna add to our organization. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on...

Carlee Wolfe (43:07.186)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (43:12.608)
on this new equation that we're gonna be building in the future. So if the job titles are not gonna be as important as they have ever been, how do you see growth happening?

Carlee Wolfe (43:24.721)
Hmm. Maybe I'm going to pull through our market analogy, right? If every stall or section within the market has a problem I'm looking to solve. Maybe growth is also understanding the needs, right? There's I'm going to the stall because I know I can solve the problem. Or now I'm maybe walking the stalls to see what problems are out there that are skills that are unmet or skills that are more needed. And how can I in being curious of

curious about myself, think about where I can then help with that solve. So I think that that's something that people can take with themselves and take for themselves to own, but is also maybe a different frame of mind about like where I'm thinking about the development and the aspect of my career I can contribute to and grow in.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (44:17.142)
It's about that mindset shift, right? And I think the AI and the tools are there. That mindset is what's really going to separate leaders and how we move forward as well. And that's all where all that's going to start.

Carlee Wolfe (44:28.818)
Yep.

Carlee Wolfe (44:32.443)
yeah. And I think leadership is another added equation, right? Like I think that the leadership role or liberal, the leader or manager is becoming more human as well. I think we've gotten away from that where we've put a lot of tasks on managers, especially mental managers. And if we think about the new problems that need to be solved, right? We need to bring people together to innovate, to think, to work across. So one, what are the skills that you want to grow as a leader?

How can you lead differently in this time? I think not having all the answers, being curious, these are two skill sets that I think are pretty counter to the workplace culture that we've had over the years. I also think the role of a leader is different, right? You have people and in the future you're have people and bots and agents and using that to bring your capacity to an organization is different.

And so how are you also growing those leadership skills around a multi-dimensional, multifaceted and human non-human team? So these are other things that people can be thinking about in their skill development and where they want to go.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (45:38.774)
Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree with that. And Carly, we are approaching our final segment. And that means a few questions that I have for you before we close out this conversation. And I want to start with the first one, which is, what would you say to someone that feels stuck right now? AI is too much. I don't know where to start. What would I do?

Carlee Wolfe (46:06.716)
Mm.

Good question. My first thought was, it's so interesting. I'm like, go to AI, like do a Google search, get on chat, literally ask that question, fascinating what you might get back. But, that's just me leaning in the curiosity of the AI space. But from a personal standpoint, I think it's probably sitting in of why do I feel stuck? And what am I, or what am I passionate about and why do I feel stuck? And I know those are big questions to begin with, but I think you start to peel those apart.

And I think it starts to open up the possibility of what unstuck could look like and where I want to go. Perhaps a more simple exercise, because that's a big question, would be each day just writing down, what did I get energy from today? And what do I want to get energy from tomorrow? And do that for a week or two weeks. And use that inventory to do your data collection, to find some themes, and then be curious about what that's telling you.

So I think those might be three ways to begin, but I'm going to hold on our be curious comment and be curious about what that means or what it could be. But those are some maybe like practical ways to explore that further. And I will say, I do want to share this too, which is in the confidence category, know that if you can do some of that work of understanding why you're stuck, there is a next step, which is then how do I move into that next direction? But no, just know for yourself that that

opportunity in that next chapter that unstuckness for you is there. I just encourage people to keep putting in the work and I know that they can get there.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (47:44.832)
It may be just one step away, right? But you just need to take that first step for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Carly. And what do you think leaders should rethink about growth in the AI era?

Carlee Wolfe (47:47.355)
Yes. One question, one step. Exactly.

Carlee Wolfe (48:03.453)
Um, I think for both themselves, but for their teams, uh, thinking about the skills, the exposure, the exposures and the experiences that people can be building in the AI world. And I think sometimes that for leaders is about creating capacity for themselves or their teams. think it's about setting environment and culture around learning and trying new things. And I think it's about just getting in, I'll use the term, the gym, the AI gym, trying stuff out, uh, trying stuff out with your team.

But I think the more people can be curious and open about that, the better off that they are going to be as a leader and that their team is going to be in being effective and high performing. Because if they are able to grow that AI mindset and use the tools that are available or could be available to them, you are going to get more out of that team. And you are going to not just, I think this is a very special time for us. If you also in that leadership mindset.

This is where you're also long-term making a profound impact on somebody's life. think if leaders are not investing in these things for themselves or for their teams, this is where we start to fall behind and where we have impact on people's careers in the way that I don't think any of us do, which is that by doing nothing, I've actually hurt my team for not setting them up for the possibility of today and tomorrow. So I think it's really important for leaders to be advocates and to be in it, to be learners themselves, to build that culture and to create the environment in which people can move forward.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (49:27.288)
doing nothing is really not an option anymore. And I see this as a movement that we need to create. We as leaders, we have this opportunity to really embrace this in a way that you bring the team along.

Carlee Wolfe (49:29.787)
Yep.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (49:43.062)
And there probably going to be some tough conversations, right? Because this is a disruptive technology. But as far as we build clarity in our communication that the team feels part of the overall strategy, I think that should be the right approach to move forward. Yeah, totally. And what role does humanity play in tomorrow's workplaces?

Carlee Wolfe (50:08.624)
Hmm. I think.

Being an advocate for the, we'll call it a see something, solve something movement, or see something, ask something, perhaps is the other movement we can start here. The more we can explore question, evolve together, I think the better that is with humanity. You heard us through that town acquisition or recruiting example of where that played out. I think this is at work. I think this is in the communities that we live. It's being, having that inclusive mindset of

yes, this thing is great. What does that mean for the pieces that wrap around it? And how can, as a human or humanity, wrap around arms around the part that might be left out to make sure that it's included so that everyone is a part of the solve and everyone is a part of the future. And I think that's the best way that we can all be in service to that. And I think we all have responsibility for it. And I think we can all be doing something about it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (51:11.522)
And we should be doing something about it, right? I don't think there will be an option. Life will happen, and we have an opportunity to get in and really shape the future. If not, it's going to happen to us. And you want to be there and have a say on how this new future will look like.

Carlee Wolfe (51:14.013)
stolen.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (51:34.17)
And, Carly, last but not least, when is efficiency enough?

Carlee Wolfe (51:42.738)
Hmm.

Carlee Wolfe (51:46.321)
When is efficiency enough? I mean, I think it goes back, it starts with the solve in mind. What is the problem we're trying to solve? And do we reach the solve of that problem and the holistic solve, again, not leaving anyone behind? And I think that that's when efficiency is enough, right? We've crossed into, we've delivered on what we said we would. And just like anything else, we take a step back and say, okay, well, what's next? Is it an efficiency play? Maybe, but is it actually an innovation play?

Is it a do more of play? I think sometimes those types of questions are maybe getting left out of the equation currently. But I think we need more of that.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (52:22.026)
Yep, totally. And yeah, Carly, thank you. It's been a pleasure to have this conversation with you today. I appreciate you for bringing clarity, courage, and humanity to a moment when so many people feel uncertain about who they are becoming and how to get there. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.

Carlee Wolfe (52:42.493)
Mm.

Carlee Wolfe (52:47.985)
Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. love the conversation. It's an important one to be having. So thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you to your listeners.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (52:56.77)
My pleasure. And if this conversation resonated, share it with someone navigating their own messy middle. Follow the human protocol, because titles will change, careers will change, but purpose, the humankind endures. Thank you all, and see you next time.