Stanford Researcher: AI Is Making Us Want People Less | Isabelle Hau

Full Episode Transcript

This is the full recorded conversation from The Human Protocol Podcast, published by The Human Protocol Group. © 2026 The Human Protocol Group. Please link to and attribute the original episode when referencing this conversation.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (00:01.922)
We have spent a century measuring IQ, the last twenty years chasing EQ, but the intelligence that decides whatever we stay human in the age of AI is one most school don't even name. And the machines are quietly training us out of it. My guest today calls it relational intelligence. Stay with me. Welcome to the Human Protocol, the podcast about staying human.

While building the future, I am your host, Michael Solomon. My guest studies the one form of intelligence nobody's racing to build into a machine, because it only lives between people. Isabel Howe runs the Stanford Accelerator for Learning and wrote Love to Learn. She started in global finance, spent a decade investing in education, and now argues that after IQ and EQ.

The intelligence that matters most in the age of AI is relational intelligence, our capacity to connect with each other. I'm very excited to have you on the show today. Isabel, welcome to the Human Protocol.

Isabelle Hau (01:15.599)
Thank you, Michael, for having me really, really excited about this conversation.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (01:20.717)
Appreciate you taking the your the time with your very busy schedule to be with us today and to kick things off. Isabel, what is intelligence relational intelligence in your own words and in plain terms?

Isabelle Hau (01:36.89)
Yeah, relational intelligence is very simply the capacity that we have as humans to relate to one another, to make meaning together, to explore differences as a human species across you know, with others. so very simple concept of our ability to to connect with with other human beings.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (02:05.516)
So it's really it's really that in plain words, right? How our ability to connect with each other and how important is, especially in times of automation, intelligent machines that may keeping us apart from each other, that comes more and more into place 'cause that's your whole thesis. We're gonna need more of that type of intelligence actually.

Isabelle Hau (02:29.279)
Exactly, Michael. but let me before before actually looking at the future, let me step back for a moment. millions of years in our evolution in the evolution of our human species. So our human species has never been static. We have evolved over the millions of years.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (02:41.384)
Ha ha ha.

Isabelle Hau (02:55.105)
It started, of course, with biological intelligence when first the human species appeared on this planet, and then evolved with various human inventions, whether it's language, whether it's fire, whether it's the rise of cities and civilizations, more recently, obviously technology. And I think the big question in front of us is as

superintelligence approaches in our lives, and who knows, you know, how many years we have before superintel superintelligence is is in front of us. we really need to ask our questions about what makes us human and what do we want our human species to become in this future.

And I believe myself, and that's my entire you know thesis, is that we need to refocus on this uniquely human capacity to relate to one another. this is where we find well-being, this is how we learn our social brains, this is how we have developed as a species. So why don't we refocus and recenter everything on

The importance of human relationships, what I call relational intelligence.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (04:21.417)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and you know, as you mentioned, it's a millions of years of civilization, right? And and the way I see it, I don't know what your thoughts should be on that, Isabel, but technology in a way has been trying on the evolution of it and our work with technology, and the more we embed technology in our lives, are kind of putting a wall

in us humans from relating to each other and to some s extent maybe blocking that ability that we all have to really connect to each other because it's a skill that we all have it's just that sometimes we don't put it to work in a way.

Isabelle Hau (05:10.563)
Yeah, I I I I think about technology myself as a neutral tool that we humans have invented and continue to perfect for our needs. so technology can actually be used for human connections, can make us more connected. there is a potential there if we are intentional about it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (05:32.166)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Hau (05:38.5)
But clearly, and you point out to the risk, there is also a risk that if we are not intentional about making technology connect us, it might isolate us. and right now with AI, we have data that are somewhat concerning. And if I may may speak in particular about some research that we are doing at Stanford on

this phenomenon that AI has to be highly psychophantic. Psychophantic means that it makes our interaction with the machine very pleasant. We get all this amazing positive feedback, a lot of praise. I'm sure that very extreme. So latest data on adults, we just published a paper on it a few weeks ago was that

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (06:25.049)
Very extreme.

Isabelle Hau (06:36.539)
AI was for adults about 50% more psychophantic than humans. Okay. But for children, the numbers are much higher. It's in the order of 14 times, according to one of my colleagues who published a paper now a year or so ago on this theme.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (06:45.06)
Wow.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (06:55.677)
Jesus Christ.

Isabelle Hau (07:05.339)
And here is what I'm very concerned about is that our research now repeat research from Stanford, one in partnership with Oxford University, shows very clearly that psychophantic AI leads us humans to like less and less human relationships. I know.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (07:28.014)
there's

Isabelle Hau (07:31.248)
The reason being that you know we are actually we really like those psychophantic interactions. Exactly. So we like being praised, and also the reality is that those machines give give us environments where there's literally no friction. it makes relationships very easy.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (07:36.228)
It's like if we need it it's like if we need a excuse, right?

Isabelle Hau (08:00.161)
And so of course we have a preference, if you'd like, for those easy you know connections, no friction, exactly, exactly. but the problem is that when we come back to the real world, that's not how you know human relationships work and the beauty of the and the complexity of human relationships is not reflected in those machines.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:08.289)
No friction. Who likes drama? Who likes drama?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:17.271)
Yeah, absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:30.411)
Yeah, it's like it's a it's a completely different reality, actual reality, the interaction between human beings. And and I'm glad that you touched on that because that that was one of the things that I was gonna try to get into a conversation with you. For example, my nephews, I have two of them, and they are glued to their fonts, right? what I've noticed is

Isabelle Hau (08:35.256)
Yeah.

Exactly.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (08:57.906)
when we have family reunions in a way, it's like we almost have to force them to interact with us on those family reunions because if not they will stay on their tablets or on their phone. And and in a way that's created I think in purpose to keep us glued to the applications, to keep us glued to those products and and and keep us that way. I think there is some engineering

behind it that it's it's made in purpose. And it's so easy because of what you said, when there is no friction, it's so easy for us to stay there and like that path that we're going into facing the real world. And that will continue to keep us apart if we are not able to come back to this reality which is ours.

Isabelle Hau (09:53.238)
Exactly. exactly. And I I would expand this phenomenon that you described for your nephews to all of us. I'm certain certainly part of it, you know, I spend a lot of time on technology and devices myself. the numbers are actually quite staggering. the average

American adult and this is a number from 2025 picks up their device every day two hundred and five times.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (10:32.767)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (10:36.895)
Isabelle Hau (10:37.679)
So literally we constantly have this urge, this need, this I don't know, to check these devices and and and to 205, that's the exact number a day, per day. when I checked my stat, and it's very very easy to check on any on any device, on any phone, on any, you know, very easy to check.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (10:47.113)
Two hundred times you said in average? A day.

Isabelle Hau (11:03.563)
My stats were actually slightly higher than 205, so no Michael, but I have zero judgment when I say this. I think we are all somewhat addicted to those devices, which gets to your question about how did we come to this place. And I think there are features of course from technology that drive us

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (11:12.894)
Right.

Isabelle Hau (11:33.04)
To be more and more engaged, that's very, very clear. I also think there are societal patterns that have also emerged and cultural patterns on work, for example, where now the expectations is that you respond to a notification or to a message. it's a mean like we also have evolved our expectations.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (12:02.098)
Right. Yes.

Isabelle Hau (12:03.535)
relative to you know several decades ago. So I think it's both a c both the s the technology as well as societal norms that have evolved for all of us.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (12:18.267)
Yes, it's like if if the expectations are you were saying of the constant and frequent communication and updates from work from our personal lives, the technology has made that possible, right? And once we jumped into that wagon which is instant and frequent updates and constant communication, it's actually hard to detach from it. And

And you know, I work with different cultures and people from different cultures, Isabel. I also do believe that culture has a part on how we approach technology and what are the limitations that we put on it. For example, people from Europe they are more conscient about quality of life in a way that human interaction takes precedent among

the rest is not that they're not using the technology, it's also I believe that when compared to the US for example, the overuse of it is less 'cause it's there's more concern about enjoying human beings among them.

Isabelle Hau (13:34.288)
Yeah, that's so true. I of I've observed observed this as well traveling across different countries and that there are definitely different societal and cultural norms about the use of technology, whether it whether as it relates to privacy. I think privacy is a data privacy is a very, very big differentiator across countries.

increasingly differences in how schools and parents view digital media although there seems to be more and more coherence globally or concerns about it from from from families but certainly right now both Europe and Australia so different parts of this planet are pushing on

different legislations that look a little different from the US or other parts of of the world. And then certainly the other big difference is the the one that you noted so nicely, which is the you know family versus work and how work expectations are from you know in different countries. Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (14:54.596)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, absolutely. I've noticed that too. And and you know, we human beings by nature we disagree, we disappoint each other, we need things, right? If a machine never needs any of that, and then our tolerance for human beings will continue to decrease, right? Because the less that we practice that

The more that we're gonna be detaching ourselves from others.

Isabelle Hau (15:30.518)
Exactly, exactly. And that's precisely the risk that my colleagues are right now highlighting with with AI. so that's a a a clear concern because if our desirability for human relationships continue decreasing with the rise of AI and given that AI is

feeling some some voids that exist already on people feeling more isolated and maybe more lonely in some contexts there is also greater likelihood that people use those those AI as you know for for for for relationships so great great a lot of a lot of risks here.

societally that I believe will require over time. And I know that there are some policymakers working on this throughout the world, but I think we will need increase it will need some some form of regulations. We can't leave it to tech companies well tech companies can also make improvement and progress on this. I think we also need not only tech companies to do the right things

Plus also have guardrails from a policy perspective.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (17:03.103)
Yeah and and and and China recently has actually put some lots aro around that to avoid to avoid people to attaching too much too much to these chatbots in a way and that's the part of the concern around the technology. Now for those that look on the optimistic side, some say that AI will come to free us.

Isabelle Hau (17:10.721)
Exactly.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (17:31.616)
From the mundane tasks, from the menal tasks, and that we should strive as a society because we are gonna have more time to really connect with each other. That's the future that I would like us to go towards, and I think all of us, once that we can continue to expand into, you know, what is the relational intelligence in a way with each other.

Isabelle Hau (17:58.914)
Yeah, I love that vision. we are sh we are seeing some there there's a one data point that we have in it's in Ireland where some researchers have shown that when teachers use ai for a number of administrative tasks, it leads to meaningful time saving what the day the

data point that they have that they showed was 17%. Okay. You know quite meaningful almost 20% of someone's someone's schedule is a is a big deal. so that's a nice headline. However there is no research yet on how this time saves saved is being used. So the the ideal would be that this

Time saved by teachers is then used to relate more to their students, to spend more time on relational tasks, to be, you know, who teachers want to be, which is these amazing relational agents. However, we don't have the evidence yet on that point for teachers or in learning environments. We have other data points in other

jobs that actually signal that people with AI feel actually more busy. so they find it's almost like okay you have gained effect efficiency but you use that time saving to I know exactly to do actually more stuff not necessarily to relate to other

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (19:43.677)
To be more efficient.

Isabelle Hau (19:52.462)
being human beings, you see what I mean? So I am I'm I'm you know we'll see how we evolve there may indeed be indeed it seems like there is some efficiency there are efficiency gains but are we reallocating that efficiency toward things that we would really aspire to see or are we getting more and you know busier and busier on other things?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (20:19.854)
I I I have to be totally honest with you. I am part of that data point that we're getting busier and busier because of AI. It's the more we work with it, the more we find other ways to continue to work with it. And and it may be that we're, you know, going through this transitional period, still trying to figure out many things. That's what I would like that's what I hope that is.

Isabelle Hau (20:22.383)
Ha ha ha ha.

Isabelle Hau (20:28.171)
Yeah.

Isabelle Hau (20:38.403)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (20:50.094)
I think in a maybe in a couple more years we're gonna be more kind of knowing where we are with the tool and where we want to be. But right now, Isabel, I'm part of that data point. I am busier than I always been, in part because of AI. The more I work with it, the more I'm finding ways to continue to improve processes, the systems, and and try to get more output out of it.

And and that keeps our brains, our body, every ba every part of us working with AI. so

Isabelle Hau (21:28.451)
Michael, there is also an another phenomenon that some colleagues are starting to document and I don't know if you feel it in your day-to-day life. I certainly do, which is also the sense that my role as a result of this tool and the access to AI is expanding. So what I mean by this is that I need to be an engineer now.

and I need to build all these AI agents. because now that's the expectation is that every one of us builds builds agency structures for workflows. I'm also now a marketing and comms because I need to do my own you know using some AI. I need to like anyway I just feel like this is interesting how my my role is

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (22:15.909)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (22:20.42)
Yeah.

Isabelle Hau (22:27.955)
is becoming almost this generalist that's powered with yeah that's powered by all these AI capabilities. But as a result it also makes my my whole less defined if you like so more complex, more complicated.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (22:31.085)
Generalist, yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (22:45.975)
Yep. I'm totally with you on that. Actually, it's funny that you mentioned that because I was talking to a friend yesterday and I was telling him, it's like I feel like nowadays what we're all becoming is like project managers. You know, project managers, they lead the project, they get people to work with each other with different types of skills, complementing skills, and you lead the project.

Now we are like our own project managers for our lives, for our jobs, because we have now these AI agents and AI and automations that we are just complementing the skills that we have. And it's just funny that you say that because that's also why I'm seeing this turning into a more of the generalist in a way.

Isabelle Hau (23:28.995)
Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (23:34.253)
So interesting. Isabel, where where do you see as far as your field of education, are you looking forward to have access to more data point to try to understand how how we're gonna continue to evolve as humans?

Isabelle Hau (24:02.079)
Absolutely, absolutely. at all levels of human intelligence. So the one obviously that I'm focused very focused on because I think it's going to rise in importance is this element of relational intelligence, but certainly we also need to better continue to understand the impact on cognitive intelligence. right now there are lots of

Potential, there's a lot of potential with AI that it could increase human potential, but also a lot of concerns on what people refer to as cognitive offloading essentially this phenomenon where you know we have students who are getting a you know a an essay and they use AI to write the essay and not learning.

that's cognitive offloading when you are not essentially being active in your learning by going through the you know the steps on the journey of but is this needed to to learn a concept. That's a big concern right now because our education systems have not adapted yet to this technology. So

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:09.845)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (25:25.717)
Right.

Isabelle Hau (25:27.671)
Our students, whether in K-12 or in college, are using it's now almost near ubiquitous across high school and college students. It's just looking at some data now. We are like at 85% of high schoolers that are using some AI in in their homework, and college students I think it's above 90%. So we it's near ubiquitous already.

And what we haven't figured yet completely is how to evolve both the pedagogy, how we teach with those tools, and how we assess. So maybe we need to change the modality by which we were assessing a student with you know an essay if someone can use an AI tool to write that essay, for example. Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (26:17.203)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (26:25.351)
R right, 'cause we're still trying to optimize for test test scores and grades, right? And and I don't see a lot of conversation around really how we teach our kids to really relation to each other. is there any is there anything in our educational system, for example here in the US that you're aware of that try to drive us towards that path on

Isabelle Hau (26:31.221)
Exactly.

Isabelle Hau (26:40.985)
Yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (26:52.681)
Teaching our kids and our people to better relate and connect to each other.

Isabelle Hau (26:57.327)
not enough. Okay, so that let me just start there. Not enough. I think because for a long time we have taken relationships as almost for granted, we we know that it's important. All of us know that this is very important. Yeah. Every parent, every educator, every student know that this is important. But it's almost like we have treated relationships as yeah, invisible, as as something that

is meant to happen, not something to work on, to increase, to improve on. That's something we measure. So yes, the the the the a very hopeful the very very hopeful element is that there is a rise rapid rise of schools and both in the US and I was just in Korea

In South Korea, same thing in South Korea. So I would say in several places in the world that are saying, okay, we actually need to focus on this element of relationships. what do we know from research already? How can we build on the science of relationships and build practices in schools to make it happen? So, for example, I'm partnering with a school.

In an innovative school to develop a relational intelligence lab that will be a set of workshops that will be started to be offered in September in a public setting. And we'll see whether that that series of workshops makes a difference in the capacity of those high schoolers to relate. But that's the hope is.

As much as there is right now a huge discourse on AI literacy in schools, so there's a lot of talks about teaching our young people how to use AI, very important, but that's a very narrow view because that essentially says we need to teach humans how to interact with machines.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (29:00.655)
Right.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (29:07.952)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Hau (29:18.805)
I would also love to see a big focus on or an equal focus or maybe greater focus, but at least equal on human to human interactions, not only human to machine interactions.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (29:31.981)
Mm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (29:36.097)
And and that gets us back to the connection piece of it. do you feel that we're facing a crisis of connection among us human beings?

Isabelle Hau (29:40.042)
Exactly.

Isabelle Hau (29:46.116)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have we have had we have had it has been unfolding for now now a while and it's a conjunct it's a it's a combination of many factors. So some have to do with the fact that families are getting smaller. So we have fertility rates all over the world that are declining.

So less and less children in in families, which means that you have less and less siblings. For example, we have a huge rise of single child families in the US but also in the world. but it goes well beyond families, people have less friends, so both adults and children.

so it's well documented that there's been a massive decrease in both the number of friends but also the the time that people spend with their friends, both of them. there are also other other things such as and some of it some of it has to do with technology, but some of it is cultural too, a decrease for children in play.

So children are more and more enrolled and I see it in my area here in in K in Northern California in the in Silicon Valley where so many children are enrolled in extremely like they're they're they're you look at the timing timetable of a child and you're like, wow, when is when does this child you know can play? They are like so structured, you know, they are running from piano to

Model UN to soccer to I don't know what what other activity, they literally do not have much time anymore to free play with their friends. and so that's another factor that that that's really important for childhood, but also for all of us adults. you know, yeah, like you know

Isabelle Hau (32:10.261)
we we spend less and less time with yeah with other other human beings. As a result of this and also this is really well documented isolation and feeling and loneliness are two different concepts but clearly they are somewhat connected and so people are also expressing more and more that they are feeling lonely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (32:32.553)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Hau (32:34.351)
and surprisingly, maybe Michael, one of the data points on loneliness that surprised me is that the group that feels the loneliest on this planet is not the elder, the people above 60 or 65. It's actually people who are the youngest, people the teenagers are the the group.

It's is a group that's twice as much reporting to feeling lonely relative to older adults. Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (33:07.636)
Wow.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (33:11.924)
Wow, that's very, very alarming. And and and part of what we have been discussing today, Isabel, is you know, technology, social media made us make us feel like we are connected to each other, but in reality it's it's not the type of connection, you know, human connection that we're looking for. kids it's like you're not making friends.

You're just getting people connected to through the internet and and at the end of the day we're getting even more disconnected from each other. It's it's a reality we need to face.

Isabelle Hau (33:56.014)
Yeah, there are there is also obviously the global pandemic added some fuel to this a pre-existing pre-existing trends. One thing that has remained post-pandemic is in work environments where still as of today, a lot of job and a lot of work environments are still hybrid or remote in some

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (34:03.232)
To it.

Isabelle Hau (34:26.041)
fashion. At Stanford University, most people come in person because we have you know still teaching present in present in presentially. And so most faculty, most students come on campus. But I I'm I'm noticing around me that a lot of work environments are still yeah either either remote completely or hybrid.

Which means that during the day a lot of people also do not interact in person with other other humans, or less than they used to before the global pandemic.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (35:09.297)
That's a a very interesting fact to take into consideration into all this conversation 'cause the pandemic pushed all of us to be, you know, isolated, to be at home, to work remote for the most part. And it has been hard to get back to some sort of pre pandemic reality to push you 'cause sometimes we are humans, sometimes we need to be pushed to interact with each other.

Right? And even when when it's a push, it's still we're still talking to each other. But if there's nothing pushing us to interact with each other, it's gonna be very easy for us to stay there. And and for someone that really wants to teach relational intelligence, let's say my sister trying to teach to my nephew at the schools, where do you think people should start, Isabel?

Isabelle Hau (36:06.595)
Yeah, there are some little little things that are very easy to implement you know, starting today. Okay, and I like those because those are just not no no big things, you know, like little things that make a huge difference. so one is modeling. So your sister could if she may she probably is already a great role model for

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (36:23.567)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Isabelle Hau (36:36.015)
For your nephew, but ensuring that she models the right patterns of technology. So for example, ensuring that the family has norms on no phones during dinner times or during certain times where the family knows, everyone in the family circle knows there is no devices.

or setting routines that work for a family unit that encourage the you know the no no use of phones. For example, someone was telling me recently, this was a funny one, that they loved they they had access to a jacuzzi. I can't remember if it was in their in their in their condo or anyway.

and they said we we they loved going to the jacuzzi as a family because there was no phone in the jacuzzi. for us in my household, we have this little tradition where on Sunday night we organize what we call a disco night. So we put some nice, you know, fun music.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (37:36.369)
huh.

Isabelle Hau (37:56.489)
And we literally g dance. there's no dance dance, you know, there's no no like there is no tomorrow, it lasts literally just a few minutes. you know, it's not not hours of doing this, but it is so freeing, so fun, so certainly big joy moment for us, big togetherness moment.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (37:59.284)
Mm. Yeah. Like there's no tomorrow.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:13.945)
Right.

Isabelle Hau (38:25.711)
so clearly deep relationships form during those moments as well as no phones no devices so establishing i'm just mentioning like whether the jacuzzi or the dance there can be various examples examples of routines that families may want to establish as ways of connecting with one another

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:40.394)
Like example, right. Yeah.

Isabelle Hau (38:53.304)
having fun and you know moments of deep connections with one another yeah

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (38:55.606)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (39:00.884)
Yeah, that's so important and it's it's sometimes it's the small things that will continue to keep us closer to each other, like traditions for example. thanks for sharing that with us, Isabel. It has been a pleasure to have you today on the show.

Isabelle Hau (39:18.029)
My pleasure and thank you for having me.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL (39:21.02)
Anytime. And for those of you watching at home, send this to a friend, to a colleague, to someone that needs a reason to stay close to each other. Talk to you all next week. Thank you all.