Ep #12 - Leading Human: Developing Leaders in the Age of AI w/ Alisha (Ali) Joseph

Full Episode Transcript

This is the full recorded conversation from The Human Protocol Podcast, published by The Human Protocol Group. © 2026 The Human Protocol Group. Please link to and attribute the original episode when referencing this conversation.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (00:04.728)
We talk a lot about AI disrupting jobs, but leadership isn't a job. It is a responsibility. And that's not something you can't outsource to an algorithm. Welcome to The Human Protocol, the podcast about staying human while building the future with AI. And I'm your host, Mykel Salomon. AI is changing how we work, but more importantly, it is changing how we lead.

In a time of transformation, the leaders who thrive won't be the ones with the flashiest tech stack, but those with the strongest human compass. Today's episode, Leading Human, Developing Leaders in the Age of AI, and I'm joined by my friend Alicia Joseph, or how many of us call her Ali.

Ali is the founder of Savvy Service Pro Learning Solutions, a leadership development and consulting company, reshaping how contact center and BPL leaders grow in the age of AI. With over 15 years working in contact centers and eight years of experience leading global operations for startups like Uber Freight, Grubhub, and Invisible Technology, Ali bridges people first leadership

with data-driven performance strategy. She is now building her soon-to-launch, and this is exciting, Ali, tech company that merges AI with leadership development to help teams move, coach, and grow in real time. Ali, my friend, welcome to The Human Protocol.

Alisha Joseph (01:50.25)
I'm so proud of you, Michael. I'm so excited to be here. I know it's been a few weeks. I've been kind of quote unquote y'all ditching him a little bit because most of y'all know I'm pregnant. so with baby number two, and it's just been a whirlwind. But Michael, I'm so proud of you for starting this podcast. I'm very excited to be here. And thank you for having me.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (02:09.878)
No, it is my absolute pleasure. know, what's worthy, we can wait until we make things happen like today, right? So this is a conversation that you and I, have been discussing for quite some time, but I'm happy that we are finally able to have it. So to kick things off, Ali, once we remove everything that LinkedIn knows about you, ShotGPT knows about you, who is really Ali at her core?

Alisha Joseph (02:18.369)
Mm-hmm.

Alisha Joseph (02:41.334)
is probably a goofy nut on a regular basis. So when I'm not working or so I have a day job, I work in AI tech company. So mostly focused on AI technology and bridging tech with companies, but also there's like a BPO aspect to it. I've been in startups in the city of Chicago for over 15 years. So

Like Michael said, Grubhub, UberSpray, Avant, I've worked with a lot of different startups for a very long time. When I am not working, I am married and I am a mom already of one and now soon to be two. And as I was telling Michael, I did not feel any of the things that I feel now in this pregnancy and it is a whirlwind. But on a regular day, I am goofy. I like to really just enjoy my time with my family.

with my son CJ. He is just everything in life. That kid is amazing. I hang out with friends. Definitely. I'm a lover of wine. I'm a foodie. Can't do that wine now, so I have to wait about five more months, but.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (03:57.922)
Can come soon enough, right Ali? Can come soon enough.

Alisha Joseph (04:01.639)
Michael, countdown has begun.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (04:06.476)
Yep. Yep.

Alisha Joseph (04:07.317)
But aside from that, you know, you will find me in someone's restaurant. You may find me cooking. You may find me. I just like to live life. I might be outside with nature. So I'm a big Christmas nerd. I like Christmas. It was around the time CJ was born. was born three days before Christmas. So, you know, I've always been a cheerful person at that, but

I'm usually pretty goofy. I like to joke a lot. I don't take life too seriously. Sometimes I do, depending on the circumstance, but I just like to really enjoy. There's so much going on. so it's, you know, keeping a smile on my face and keeping a smile on people's faces is something that I try to do as much as I can.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (04:54.126)
And that's the type of energy that we all need a little bit more in our lives, right, Ali? It's just that type of, you know, positive mentality and energy. Like, you know, life is hard, but we have to go through it, right? One way or the other. So, we all can use a little bit more on that. But when we were first discussing, Ali, what would be kind of a topic or an angle for us to have this conversation that we're having today?

Alisha Joseph (05:06.654)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (05:21.098)
And since the day I met you back in Austin during our days of support driven, I know that leadership and leading people, it's a passion of yours, right? And I know that you see these as I see it myself as well, that leadership is really not a title. It is really a relationship, right? A relationship with our people every day, day in and day out. And I'm curious to see if you can tell us, our people.

What got you into leadership and what was that time and moment that you say, hey, this is what I want to do. I want to get into leadership. I want to move and lead people. What was that moment that really sparked that in you?

Alisha Joseph (06:06.758)
Yeah, so as I tell people a lot of the time, this contact center work was not something I was planning on getting into. just kind of, used it, I started at like a really small, like, non-for-profit contact center that was just collecting and donate funds for like firefighters and police officers. So I just use these gigs as an agent to make money. At the time when I was getting my undergrad,

goal was to get my bachelor's degree. I was actually going to be a criminal attorney. So that was actually my first pass. And so yeah, so it was like I wanted to be a teacher and then I really got into like the law and just like learning about the law. And so I wanted to I was going to school to actually for criminal justice. A little bit into school, I swapped over to business.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (06:45.472)
Interesting.

Alisha Joseph (07:01.861)
But the call center was just like, hey, I'm just making money until I get this degree and then I just go forth for something else. I worked in several. The one that made me decide to get into leadership was I was working at a personal finance company and I really, well, I had a mentor prior. So I worked in education and online education. I worked for the military department.

And so I was an advisor and I was helping military vets as well as active military get their degree. And so I moved on from that and that was kind of like the starting place. I had a mentor who saw something in me when I was an agent and I was a temporary agent. And then they mentored me, making me a subject matter expert, introducing new agents to the work and to the day to day.

That essentially got me to the advising position. And then a little bit later I got into finance. And so I started off as an agent, was like an agent for a few months and then became a team lead. And I was kind of already running a team then. And so I grew up in call centers. I say that to everyone. I grew up in the contact center world. And so when I became a team lead, that was where I got a little bit of my leeway and starting to lead.

What made me decide to go into leading, I actually was very passionate about it. I was a subject matter expert. I was talking to customers. My quality was always stellar. It took a while to get there, but it essentially being able to mentor people and just being able to, you know, coach people in that capacity, helping them to make sure that their quality scores and their performance was top tier.

actually just really became a passion of mine. wasn't even honestly looking for the role or looking for a leadership role. It was just something naturally that I think a lot of characteristics of leaders have. You want to help people. It's just a natural character trait. And so essentially, I'm in a position came open. had a couple of mentors there and then I applied for it. I was asked to apply for it. At first I didn't want to. I was like, well, I'm not really interested in that.

Alisha Joseph (09:24.687)
You know, I was thinking about politics and stuff and I'm like, I really don't want to get so far away from my team. Um, but a lot of people were saying it, asking me, and so I did essentially apply for it and I got the role as a manager there. And so at that moment, it was kind of like, had seen people that had already helped and mentored and there were a lot of leaders that had already known me. They knew my work ethic. They knew, Hey, this is what you get with.

Ali, right? So it was at that moment that I realized like, okay, this is something that in order for me to have a quote unquote, seat at the table, this is something that I should do and that I should move forward with. And so also just being a person of color being black, I didn't see a lot of me in those roles as well. Like there was probably one or two. And so I took it upon myself as a responsibility to say, Hey, I can be that

next face in this role and in a leadership role where others that may not have believed they could get there could actually do it and then show them how I did it. it was at that moment that I realized like, okay, there was a purpose here for me. There was the ability to have a seat in a table that I may not have had before. And the rest is history. I have joined some really great companies. I've met some really incredible people.

My biggest love is, and the thing that I appreciate is that I can sit back and say that I've helped people become leaders and not just stay as an agent and get into management and even managing managers. And so that's something that is just naturally something I've gotten into. It's just been a passion of mine. It's just always helping and helping people however I can.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (11:12.482)
That's beautiful. And that's really what leadership is about, Developing, making people grow, making people feel and see themselves in places where they may not even think that they could be. And you said something that is really extremely important. Some people, they're searching title, you found purpose. And that's where we feel when we talk to you, All right, Ali, you're always empowering.

the profession, the people from contact center, everybody around you know how you are a champion of the contact center in a way, right? Which is a profession that for a lot of people are, we don't talk a lot or more as we should be talking about the important work that happens in contact centers. Because it's extremely important and we don't discuss that a lot. And you're always championing those topics and that's something that I think is extremely, extremely important and especially in you.

Alisha Joseph (12:11.131)
I that. definitely more conversations to continue on that. But I love how it's evolved now, even more so now, not just like a call center, but like an actual support strategy.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (12:25.068)
Yep, we are kind of embedding more and more and embracing more and more. When we talk about support and overall customer experience, we're bringing all these different sides that are really part of the overall customer experience as part of one conversation. And I've seen also this happening a lot more and more in the past few months and a year that we are kind of embracing more outside of our usual circle, right?

those other professions that are really part and contribute to the overall customer experience. And I think that's really extremely important as we move forward. Ali, when we started discussing this, and the reason why the human protocol was born, it's because this whole AI conversation and acceleration of AI into our lives, right?

in a way that is disruptive, in a way that it's also bringing a lot of positive things on to us. And when I started looking at it a few months ago, what are we doing today and what are those conversations that are not happening today that we should start discussing and talking about? And that's why the human protocol came along. And this topic of ours, it's...

It's about how we're going to continue to lead and develop people in the future. Things are about to change as regular learning and development topics and tools are probably going to be disrupted or changed because of AI. So I'm curious when you look at the state of things today, the state of the business in the leadership and development phase.

How do you see things evolving into that area? And what are the things that you think we as leaders and upcoming leaders needs to start thinking about on how they are gonna embrace learning in this new future with AI?

Alisha Joseph (14:35.39)
Yeah, so a lot of what I'm seeing is there's a transition, right? There's been a lot of different conversations about tier one work. There's thinking about how do we take those minute things that we do on a day to day basis and implement AI to make it more streamlined. And so one of the things as leaders and stuff that I've even just implemented is just making sure that your team is ready for the transition.

think that's been the hardest part because yes, it is a reality. We have to be transparent. It is a reality that a lot of people have lost their jobs, budget cuts. A lot of companies are utilizing AI for more smaller tasks. And so the mentality hasn't always been positive. It didn't necessarily start off positive. I mean, I've even had questions as well, just thinking about as a leader.

overall, how do I transition myself to implement with AI, understanding that it's not going away. And so me having that pep talk with myself has actually helped me even with transitioning. So one thing is I'm not perfect in the conversation. And if anyone is saying that they're perfect, having perfect conversations with their team, with AI, AI is new. Exactly. Like 100. Right.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (15:50.571)
Right.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (15:54.84)
That's a total lie. Total lie. We are all learning. We are going through the same learning curve together. Yes.

Alisha Joseph (16:00.739)
Exactly. One thousand percent. So the conversations that I have had have not been a thousand percent. They have not been perfect. I have even had agents just say, this is it for me. Right. And so during this process, it's about understanding what the business needs as far as AI. And so that's crucially important too, is that there's an actual strategy.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (16:17.774)
Hmm.

Alisha Joseph (16:28.897)
with how organizations utilize AI. So it takes partnership. It takes our executive leaders. It takes leaders to really come together and understanding what the hell you need AI for. Because a lot of these companies do not know. They just want to do AI because this company's doing it. well, we better get involved. Exactly. So you need to have a strategy with how you're going to utilize AI. Of course, it's going to change. Of course, there's going to be adjustments.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (16:45.486)
Because of AI, exactly.

Alisha Joseph (16:58.029)
But in the end, the strategy and the long-term goal is what's going to be important. And then once that's understood and I understand, and when I have those conversations, now I'm bringing the strategy to my team. I'm helping them understand. And what a lot of teams I'm seeing as well is they're thinking about is, well, how do we utilize AI? Well, the machines, they're going to take certain pieces of information. They're going to take certain pieces, depending on what your workflow is.

But essentially, we're going to need people, human element, which goes back to that. AI can't take over empathy. AI cannot have some type of sympathy for the customer. There's no relation. And so that's where that human element needs to stick in. We need people to do quality checks and control checks with these AI models that are being developed. And so that's something that humans can really, as people and as work,

This is something we can really like take charge in because essentially AI is going to make mistakes. There's going to need to be adjustments depending on your customer base, your customer voice, your journey, so on and so forth. And so I have started strategically talking to my teams about how you can utilize AI, how it needs to be utilized in the business, what needs to be done and how they can be a part of that.

And a part of that right now is definitely quality and understanding learning models and learning as much as you can about the different aspects of AI. And it goes so deep, right? It's not just about AI, it's about understanding learning models and how they communicate and how they kind of mimic us as humans as well. And so as I transition those type of conversations, now we have...

team members and people who are just like, I'm interested in engaged because we're not just talking about AI as just a core function. Now I'm bringing them to helping them understand there's development opportunity in that there's opportunity to expand your career, having this knowledge, having the ability to work with different models, having the ability to understand how they read one another and how they execute a workflows. And so that's something that

Alisha Joseph (19:18.15)
While still not perfect, I have found that to be very helpful is understanding well, because at the end of the day, everyone can come on and talk about this politics and it's like, you know, we can be professional. The question comes down to what's in it for me and how can I get paid?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (19:34.452)
Exactly. So what is it for me? Exactly. That is exactly the type of conversation that people, our people are expecting from us. Tell us how this is going to transform, change our roles and how I can evolve and adapt and getting to this new future with AI. But this is the type of conversation Ali, the type of conversation that you're having, even though it may be imperfect, even though you may not have all the answers, you are just getting started.

and you're telling your people that you don't know all the answers, but you're going to, you know, walk the walk with them and see how we're going to transition from where we are today into the future is having the guts of having this type of conversation that I think for a lot of people in a lot of organizations, they're so afraid of not accepting that they don't know all the answers to their people, that these type of conversations are not even started. And that's where I see the problem also.

Alisha Joseph (20:30.196)
Yeah, it's insane because, and I've seen this even before AI came in, it's this kind of like, I'm trying to keep this corporate culture. And that's one thing that I said when I became a leader that I wasn't, I did at first, because it's just kind of trained in our heads, like, hey, we have to have this certain culture and mindset. That doesn't work. I will argue that all day. That is not how I built my career.

It is not how I built relationships. It does not work. And it's the same thing with AI. It's, I don't have all the answers. I'm not going to pretend that I do. This is a new technology that we are implementing in workflows from tiers one, two, three, and even in some of our other types of work with HR in our product teams, right? So there's so much to learn. It's just understanding how we can learn with it.

and what we can do to make sure that we're learning and developing our minds and our skills and expertise and how we're bringing impact to the business. But yeah, it's this mindset of, you need to know all the answers or, you know, I'm afraid to give all the information because there's someone or they might look at me as if I don't know. Well, most people don't.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (21:47.116)
Right. Exactly. Most people don't at the end of the day. That's and we rather being honest and upfront, which what we don't know and what we know, right? Instead of just coming up with excuses or trying to invent things in as we go. It's like you really cannot lead into the future if you haven't learned to listen in the present. Right. And these conversations that we are having with our people.

It's also part of a lot listening to them, to their concerns and see how we are going to all move together, right? Because their concerns are valid and everybody has different needs, different concerns about how one way or the other, AI will impact their jobs, right? And what is it going to be there for them in the future? And I think listening is really what people...

like you and I and others in leadership roles, need to pay more attention and listen more to our people as we move along.

Alisha Joseph (22:48.411)
Agreed.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (22:50.742)
Right? So it's going to continue to be extremely important. So I think that you mentioned a few things that I think are extremely important for people to get to try to understand the basic of AI. Because AI, it's a lot of things. And we all talk about AI thinking is one thing. No, it's a lot of things. It's prompt engineering. It's how you're going to communicate with the model. How are you going to extract the best answer from the model?

And how is your role going to evolve and change as we move along? And what is going to be your contribution to make it a success partnership? Because I'm going to see this more also as a partnership as we move together with AI, with this AI agents and solution is we're going to continue to partners with code and machines. It's human working alongside with really application and AI agents as we move along.

Alisha Joseph (23:20.432)
Yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (23:48.916)
And it's going to be for us to really learn how we're going to conduct these operations moving forward because we're going to continue to lead them into the future. So and for that, we as leader, we will need to continue to learn and develop. So as as the legacy learning and development, Ali tools and materials, right, that you that we have used in the past.

What's coming into the future? How are going to continue to develop ourselves? It's going to be via mobile application, web-based, AI-driven. So how do you see really learning and development happening more and more into this future? I'm curious about it.

Alisha Joseph (24:37.05)
Yes, so I can't give too much detail, but so with the tech portion of savvy service pro learning solutions, I am working. I put a little bit of a pause just to make sure my health is number one, but I see learning as yeah. Absolutely. And so what I've previously, so what I've been working on is

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (24:53.31)
Absolutely. Please keep doing that. We can't wait. We're going to continue to wait. Okay.

Alisha Joseph (25:05.003)
For me, when I think about leadership development now, I think about leadership development on the job, real time, and immediate feedback. And so what I'm building is a coaching model that will help leaders. it does, the goal would be for two aspects. They're learning to lead on the job, understanding when to reach out, understanding

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (25:13.422)
Hmm.

Alisha Joseph (25:30.358)
when to have those conversations with their team, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent. Understanding props. So as in AI, they talked about prop engineering, utilizing AI to be able to prompt and understand there might be an agent that's having a bad day or might be having certain situations going on. There might be an agent that is just underperforming and you need to have certain conversations. There might be an agent that is like top performing and is bored.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (25:33.697)
out.

Alisha Joseph (25:59.161)
at their job at that point. And so this coaching model, my goal is to build a coaching model that helps leaders on the job learn and teach and continue to learn how to lead while partnering and bringing in different topics and resources to help them continue to grow as a leader. And so it's not only just learning about AI, but it's also AI helping them to understand when's the best way to utilize and check in when it comes to your team.

what they need coaching on, what attention, because it's not just about all together, because you have to treat each individual as one. Like people have individual needs, they have certain things that they need compared to others. And so it's being able to multitask and work with different people on your team. You may have people that are from a generation that's more focused and they want to get their job done. You have more that are a little bit.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (26:38.306)
Right. Right.

Alisha Joseph (26:55.433)
Not necessarily, I don't want to say challenging, but they push back a lot on things. And so as a leader, it's important that you understand these different personality types to be able to be successful. And so that's one of the things that I'm really focused on is utilizing AI to help leaders be better leaders in real time. And so when I see leadership development now, it's on the job. It's bringing in resources, but it's also doing this and implementing it right then and there. And

reflecting on it and taking all of these skills and developments and being able to put that on a performance review, being able to execute strategy, which is the key reason why I'm building this tech model.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (27:37.504)
It's such an interesting idea, Ali, because I also see this future with AI being more on the job running, right? It's more instant feedback, right? Instead of you just waiting the usual way of getting feedback from your coach or just reading this and trying to make sense of what you're reading, AI will be kind of giving you feedback as you move along, right?

Alisha Joseph (27:46.014)
EHEH

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (28:03.616)
in a more kind of present and even frequent way as we are used to.

And I think that's a very, very interesting that really align with what this future with AI will bring to all of us, more instant and frequent updates and information to our lives.

Alisha Joseph (28:25.139)
Yeah, it definitely, I do see it really helping bring out the individualism too. Because there's typically when you go on a company and, or if you join a company or if you just are in a company and you get a team, you kind of just go with the same kind of strategy for every individual. And so the one thing I do see with AI is this will be able to help you.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (28:33.41)
Mm-hmm.

Alisha Joseph (28:51.444)
See all of your agents in a more individual way. So not just, okay, here's the baseline, but what do different people need? And I think that's something for a long time, even with me, when I started out as a leader, I had a challenge with that. So I just used one playbook, one simple strategy. HR said, do this for everyone and it should be fine. And for me, that didn't work. Cause then you had a lot of, I had a lot of turnover. I had a lot of people that were just like, okay, this is fine, but this is not what I need.

And so this is not what's helping me with my growth or my career. And so I do see this kind of learning in real time, giving you the ability to have the strategies to execute for people in different ways. And I think that's something for a long time leaders have had challenges with. And now we're starting to see these different personalities, you know, on these teams, different generations are, you know, on these teams. And so it's crucial.

to bring all these different differences and personalities together, especially with this new technology. So there's definitely a positive there that AI can really help leaders with strategy.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (30:00.46)
And I also see the potential opportunity not only at the leadership level, but for our people to leverage this type of technology on their development purposes, right? Because it's serve even people that are individual contributors one way or the other. This type of technology can also help them on their development needs. So it can serve different levels as far as learning and development.

Alisha Joseph (30:10.385)
Yes.

Alisha Joseph (30:29.575)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (30:31.286)
Yeah, interesting and very, very exciting, my friend. Really, really excited for you in this one. So let's see what's happened next. Whenever you get there, I'll be more than happy to give feedback and participate in some of the beta tests and pilots of the application myself, okay? Ali, where is...

Alisha Joseph (30:51.692)
yeah, it is coming.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (31:01.96)
And our humanity in all this as we move along and something that this is kind of the core principle of this podcast and this conversation. It's our people, our humanity. And I'm very optimistic and very I make technologies myself. I love technology, but I have to be honest with you. The way AI is accelerating, sometimes it scares me. And.

I consider myself not an expert because I'm never going to be an expert, but I'm using it. I'm leveraging and I see the potential of this. The potential of this is really kind of unlimited because it just gets better and better and better. And sometimes it makes me pause and think on what is it going to happen with you and I? Where is this future?

as AI will continue to accelerate and probably take over a lot more and more of the task that we do today. the problem I see is with those people that they haven't even started working with AI one way or the other. So I'm curious to see how do you see it and what would be a message for

those people that they haven't even started working with AI in any shape or form, for example.

Alisha Joseph (32:34.928)
would start and I'm saying this for me as a leader who is still learning. Okay. I have started with all of your your clods, your chat GPT, those models. I have started with that. Some people have utilized that to build chat box. Some people have utilized that with communication. The biggest thing for me

when it comes down to leadership is continual strategy. And so when I talk about strategy, I'm looking at it in two phases. I'm looking at developing people with this technology and then how it impacts the business. And from that point, it has given me ideas. So I know some people, and I noticed this too, like they do a copy and paste. Don't do that, okay? I still,

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (33:27.054)
Mm-hmm.

Alisha Joseph (33:30.455)
And I wish I had one here, but I still have, I still write things down. For me, that just works. I don't know. It's just something that I have to write my ideas down first. And then I take these ideas.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (33:43.224)
There's no better to memorize it than just writing it down. Absolutely yes.

Alisha Joseph (33:46.624)
Right. Just writing it down. Like I have to write it down. And so I have books of just ideas and books of just things that I want to implement. And then I utilize those things like cloud and chat, GPT. I utilize that as a way to get ideas and to evolve my ideas. And so start there. All these people are talking about learning models and code and that

takes time. Prop engineering is very intensive. is very tedious. It is very intensive. You are sitting with codes. You are changing. You are developing back-end workflows for these technologies to execute appropriately for one workflow. You probably have 46 steps for one freaking workflow. Start there. Take your ideas, write them down.

put them in chat, GTO, whichever one's your favorite. I know there's a lot more out there now. Put in your favorite, see how you can evolve those ideas. And then getting to understand how you can communicate back and forth with AI versus with your ideas. Try some of those strategies out. I've had plenty of them that failed, but out of that, just kind of going back and forth, I've had some that have been extremely successful, especially with reporting.

understanding having executive level team members understand breakdown of work, understanding how the technology is working for the workflow versus where we actually still need development on the workflow. And so it's just really getting in and putting your ideas in and having them evolve and just trying them. All of them are not going to work because I've had several that did not work and they sounded yeah, right. Yeah. And so I didn't.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (35:37.976)
But that's life. That's right, like anything in life. Some things will work, others won't work. And that is fine.

Alisha Joseph (35:46.268)
Yeah. And it's just like, yeah. And people need to like understand that. Like, again, this isn't a rat race, even though I know people are trying to like, everyone wants to get the like innovative technology, like there's so many layers to it. And so as you get into that and, and utilizing, that's a great start there. Learning and understanding the different parts of it, like prompting engineering, understanding how workflows even take a workflow you have at work right now, put it in.

talk about kind of talk about what the ends and out of that workflow is. Ask chat GPT, hey, how could this be more evolved? You'll get a ton of different ideas and boom, try some out. Some may work, some may not. So it's all about just really diving in as we all do in these support teams. Yeah, just getting started. Like don't be afraid to get your hands dirty with it. Don't be afraid of.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (36:33.858)
getting started.

Alisha Joseph (36:41.337)
given an idea and it sounds a little bit silly. Of course, continue to do your research. I say that all the time and understand your business, but there's no perfect way to start. It's just diving in, understanding. I think the key is just really understanding how different models work together. So that way you can, when you're developing a workflow or if you're giving feedback on specific workflows, that way you'll be able to have something strategic.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (36:47.021)
Mm-hmm.

Alisha Joseph (37:08.295)
that could actually impact the business, also makes your role easier too.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (37:13.9)
And trust, but verify. Like I told everyone, it's gonna be the same thing with AI. The prompt and the results, don't just trust it, just verify it as well, because they are subject for error, right? This is machine code, this is not perfect, right? It can make mistakes and it does make mistakes. But like you said, the key is to get started, and it's baby steps. And one thing that has been a...

Alisha Joseph (37:25.926)
Yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (37:42.222)
like a huge unlock for me this year, It has been leveraging AI and automation opportunity to really connect the dots on data that before they were not connected at all and we didn't get an opportunity to see some patterns in the data that we have from, for example, in customer support and all the feedback that we're getting from customer. And this type of...

technology really helps to really connect the dots and see you, make you see things that, you know, using your two eyes, maybe you were not able to visualize yourself. So it's, it has a lot of benefits, but it takes you getting started, getting to learn, play around, be playful, right? And just get started. Absolutely. I think that's really...

The best we can tell everyone, just really get started. There should not be an option of not getting started. Everyone, one way or the other, should learn to work with AI for personal or professional reasons, for sure.

Alisha Joseph (38:54.431)
I It has helped me also personally. Just doing random things. You might want to find a trip for the kids. Like, okay, give me some ideas here that we can do that's cost efficient. Boom.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (39:05.706)
It's saving a lot of time that before we used to spend on researching and finding the right articles. Now we're getting answers right at our fingerprints instead of all searching as we used to be before when I used to leverage Google to find articles and then collect the data and then putting it together. Now we are getting for the most part what we're looking for and very quick. So yeah.

Alisha Joseph (39:33.207)
Indeed.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (39:35.01)
So Ali, if I asked you to complete this sentence, what would that be? The future of leadership is.

Alisha Joseph (39:43.751)
Ooh, the future of leadership. Ooh, I could take that a few ways. Okay. So I'll say the future of leadership is empathy.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (39:56.398)
Hmm loved it. I loved it. We need more of that

Alisha Joseph (39:59.511)
I yeah, I say there's a lot happening, right? You have a lot of people who are working in companies who are not tech savvy. You have people that are learning a new skill. They are trying to balance what they have already have implemented in their mind and a certain structure on things with a technology that will challenge that.

people who are going to push more for that technology that you may feel like you're getting behind. On top of all of that, trying to bring those core skills, trying to learn and have that knowledge of the new technology, trying to utilize it in your day to day. On top of everything else that's going on in this world right now is definitely a lot. so, you know, lot of companies, there's this common saying of just like, you know, keep personal

and keep business out. And that is like far from the truth. That is old. It is a old thinking. It is not how you lead. And so there has to be some form of empathy. Right. And I say empathy because again we're not trying to bring all our business to work. We're not trying to unfocus and not focus on the task at hand or impacting the business. But this is a process that

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (41:18.744)
Right. Right.

Alisha Joseph (41:27.819)
You may have people out there that are walking around super professional. They know everything from the top to the bottom. are lying. Okay. They do not. And so giving some grace and having that empathy of understanding people from an individual perspective, and then from a changing transformation perspective of companies is going to be really crucial. And so even like with my team at my day job, it's

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (41:36.686)
Hmm.

Alisha Joseph (41:55.485)
that empathy, understanding because it's a global like the team is global so they're all over the world and so their day-to-days are nights for them like my day is their night okay and so it's having empathy and understanding that their situations personally can sometimes impact their business and the work that they're doing and then with the different changes of what clients are looking for

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (42:01.24)
Right.

Alisha Joseph (42:20.338)
what customers are looking for when it comes down to technology, giving them better customer experience, giving them that top tier experience. That's a challenge in itself. And we're always thinking in our industry, how do we make the customer satisfied? How do we keep the customer happy? How do we keep retaining the customer so that way we continue to see higher profits, that we continue to see lifetime value? And so there are so many pieces

and it's moving very rapidly. so empathy is core. It's not gonna go away, right? We don't wanna become the AI robots, right? That we're training. Yeah, so.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (43:00.916)
I absolutely no. I cannot agree with you more on that. Yes.

Alisha Joseph (43:08.189)
Yeah, it's we don't want to become that right? We don't want to be the AI right in in the human element We don't want to be robots, right? We talk about that, right? I come from old school contact center. There was a script Okay, you have to read that script Okay for word from word you did that's where I come from. That's not that's telling my age a little bit But that's where I came from. Okay

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (43:24.962)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (43:30.926)
You make me laugh now. Back in my days when I used to manage to help this, we have those scripts as well. You better read it every single word, right? Every single one of them. And it was a human being reading it every single word. Yes.

Alisha Joseph (43:42.814)
Right?

Alisha Joseph (43:48.126)
everything. And so now there's so many like different pieces. Now we're trying to, we have to quality do a QA check on the AI model to see if they said the correct thing. So it's like, we're not doing it anymore. Now AI is doing that. Models are being taught to AI to do that. And now we're as humans having to do a quality control check. So yeah, it's empathy.

I will argue that all day because everyone is still trying to figure it all out while trying to figure out their personal lives day to day.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (44:24.61)
Listen, everyone, listen to Ali. It's empathy. It's really empathy. And that's a first time manager, senior leaders for every single one. It doesn't matter. We all need more empathy. And I think we're all going to need it in this new future. Because that's really what makes us humans being humans, right? I think the day or the time that we automate our humanity and we remove empathy from our lives, we are going to be doomed as a species, really.

Alisha Joseph (44:39.729)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (44:53.002)
It's gonna be the end for humanity, because we're gonna just be another robot in a way, right? So literally, and that's why we really need to try to avoid. And we need more leaders, right? Ali, we need to continue to have more leaders sharing and embracing empathy, fighting for our people. And for those that are listening today, thinking about getting, and they, don't know if it's individual,

Alisha Joseph (45:00.221)
Literally.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (45:22.37)
contributor or leadership that they want to go. What would be your advice for those new managers or those thinking about getting into a leadership role?

Alisha Joseph (45:37.117)
might get in trouble for this. So use it at your own discretion.

What they tell you as a leader, do the exact opposite.

So don't go in. What I mean is don't don't go in with this corporate mindset idea that this is the structure you have to do for your team. You will fail every single time. I tried that being an internal grower. So I grew from an agent to a manager and that was like what I thought I had to do. That's what we're naturally structured to do. It does not work. Okay. Fight me on it.

That's fine. I'm happy to do that as an external manager because there's a difference. There's a difference growing into a manager in a company versus coming in as a new manager. And externally, there's a real defined difference. Yeah. Yeah. And so they'll tell you a certain thing. They'll tell you, know, preconceived notions that's already been there. Do your own research.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (46:30.178)
Right.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (46:33.954)
That's a very valid point. That's a very valid point. Yeah.

Alisha Joseph (46:50.284)
whether you're coming in as a manager internally, whether you're coming in as an external manager, do your own research. I've walked into teams where literally the people are fighting me because they were going for my role. Okay. And for some reason they didn't get it. There is a lot of times there's politics. Okay. This

executive leader didn't like this person. So that's why they didn't get it. Now people can lie and say, that doesn't happen bullshit. Okay. So like it happens. So do your own, do your own research, understand what your role is. Understand. And when I say this, ask, what are you trying to accomplish now? Do we have behavioral issues that you need me to execute on? Are there process issues that you need me to execute on? Right.

Really be clear because some of these leaders and some of these execs, they don't know. So again, we use at your discretion, but I've been doing this for a very long time. And so I'm just going to be as transparent as possible. Do your own. Okay. Do your own research, understand what needs to be captured first. Do they need you to capture people problems first and fix that issue?

Do they need you to fix people, process issues? Is that something that needs to work? Both you can do hand in hand, but ultimately the goal is to make sure that these things are aligned so that way you can give the best customer experience. And then when you're trying to bring in new strategies of your own, then the foundation has already been laid. Because I've seen too many times where people come in, they're trying to be...

that that ball and chain and they're trying to tell people who's been there. They don't know the full story. And I mean, again, we're human, we're people like everybody, you know, some people, your perception is your reality. And so you have to get past that. And so when I started doing that as a leader, instead of just going with what I was told, I saw a completely different result. Now, of course, you're to have the bad apples. And unfortunately, that's part of the job.

Alisha Joseph (49:05.64)
You know they're bad apples, you experience it yourself, and then you have to act and plan accordingly. But everything that is shared or communicated is not always true and the politics are not always added. So I always say, check for yourself.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (49:18.35)
Hmm. Yeah. And there's a lot of that. And, I'm just going to add something that I always tell everyone that I care about. And I would like to share it here with us today. And it's not only for leaders, but especially for leaders. Once you get into leadership is never going to be about yourself. So if you want to succeed, never take things personal, right?

Alisha Joseph (49:39.297)
Uh-uh.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (49:44.27)
If you really want to succeed, especially corporate America, that is very aggressive and brutal. Right, my friend? Never take things personal. It's never going to be about you. Just focus on the long picture. But I always say, do you do you and you won't be you? You can't go wrong with it because at the end of the day, that's really the lasting legacy that you want to leave people to remember who you are as a leader. Right. Which is kind of the most important part of you being in leadership.

is what people also are going to remember of what you did for them and how you stood up for them, actually.

Alisha Joseph (50:21.295)
One, 100%. I don't ever consider myself, and I've said this in my newsletter, I don't consider myself a culture fit. I am a culture ad. And so if that's, if you're looking for a culture fit, I am not that person. We could be cool. We can be professional, but I am not a culture fit. I am always coming in, trying to understand and how can we make this? Because sometimes when we all have the same mindset, ideas get bland.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:35.745)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:43.342)
Yeah.

Alisha Joseph (50:50.998)
and then they don't work and it's the same information over and over again. And so I like to come in and add that, guess, quote, of color.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:51.427)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:59.694)
The Ali effect, right? That's why you...

Alisha Joseph (51:03.701)
Yes, there you go.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (51:07.918)
But I really appreciate you saying that. I'd have people like you that tell things the way they are and the way they should be instead of sugarcoating. I don't think sugarcoating helps anyone. We're going to tell you the things the way we see it, right? Based on our experience and what we have experienced in life. It's really what you're going to get here and what you're getting here from this conversation, actually. So thanks for that, Ali.

And we're getting up to the final part of our conversation today, which is actually it's one question, but think about one question for four different groups. I think are four different groups. And I'm going to get started with the first one, which is what would be your piece of advice? And I think you mentioned some of it at the beginning of our conversation, but I would like to also just to close it to.

to get back to the last part of this conversation is what would be your piece of advice for organizations going through understanding or entertaining the possibility of integrating AI into their business processes and operations?

Alisha Joseph (52:25.78)
a brainstorming session and understanding what you're trying to accomplish. Do not try to follow everybody else. I'm gonna say that again. Do not try to follow everyone else trying to rush AI, okay?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (52:32.334)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (52:41.846)
Listen people, if you are in the back, listen to this which is important. For those in the back, right?

Alisha Joseph (52:49.299)
Yes, yes. Make sure you have an actual strategy on what you want to accomplish. The reason I am saying that is because there are a million and one tools out there. There are a million and one, which is why I did not initially start as a tech or wanting to get into like a tech based product because there's thousands out there that promise very similar things. And so you have to, as a subject matter expert,

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (53:13.934)
and

Alisha Joseph (53:19.461)
which you have your agents for that. And I'm speaking more and this is not anything against like coming in externally because you can learn a lot of the time it's high level, but growing in a company from an agent to a team lead to a manager, have, you have the real true ins and outs of a business. understanding your tech stack, understanding the limitations of that tech stack, understanding the budget that the company is looking to stay within are very key and crucial. So.

You don't want to turn around and bring in an AI product that's going to be $50 million and they're not even in the budget is literally only 100,000. So it's really understanding your business model, understanding your customer journey, understanding the business model, understanding what as a executive group, what they're looking to accomplish with AI. It is then.

Once you have that strategy sorted out, once you have that overall alignment, then it's doing your research. It's identifying what tools, what resources that you can utilize that will help get to those business outcomes and also help you to be able to implement your team with this whole AI technology. And so it starts with strategy. Too many organizations are now trying to speed up the process of AI.

because there's these budget cuts and these people who has never worked in support, never took a phone call from a customer, never even looked at a damn workflow, has no idea and says we need AI as if it is just something you just immediately implement. It does not work that way.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (54:47.018)
Uncut corners, yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (54:54.264)
They don't even know what they're doing.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (55:05.398)
And what you guys are doing and those companies doing and following these steps, you are just risking losing your customers. Your customer is only a step out of the door when you're making this type of decisions that are not based on a strategy and the outcomes that you want to achieve. And when you're putting people... Yeah.

Alisha Joseph (55:24.049)
So they can tell you messy. They can tell you have no clue. And they're like, nope.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (55:29.014)
Yeah. And there's nothing worse because once that trust is breached, the customer is out, not coming back anymore. So it's top. Don't do that because it's one, you know, one mistake will cost you your customers to really walk away from you. And that's nothing that we can do and we should be doing absolutely. So, so yeah, thanks for sharing that Ali.

I think, I absolutely agree with you, think about your strategy. What do you want to achieve and how you can leverage your people in this new future, whatever the plans are for your company and leveraging these solutions to help you achieve your business goal. But it all starts, like Ali said, with the strategy. What are you trying to accomplish, really? The next question and the next group, Ali, is for those

companies building a million and one and maybe there's a million and 10 right now in the last 10 seconds, there have been 10 other companies building or saying that they're building AI solutions. What do you want to tell to those founders and companies that every day they're just coming with one AI something into our lives?

Alisha Joseph (56:47.928)
Thank you for the spotlight, Michael. Research the company that you're pitching to, okay? Listen, I say this with full passion, but this is coming out of love, okay, from one of your favorite ops leaders, okay? There has been numerous DMs where people will send me information about my business and will send me stuff about AI contact center. There is nowhere, anywhere you will find

on my page that says I run a contact center with savvy surface for learning solutions. Okay. In addition, identify who you are pitching to. Okay. Too many AI companies are excited about their product, which I'm sure you have put time, energy, money, and just blood, sweat, and tears in. It is not to say it is not successful, but just as we say that

Every person, every customer is not your customer. That is the same thing for every business. Every business is not your customer. Okay. Every organization is not your customer. You have to do the necessary research, the time and the effort and understanding how your model, specifically your product can help with current conditions and problems. Some of the best people that I have spoken to and some of the best people that I've heard.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (57:51.054)
Mmm.

Alisha Joseph (58:13.062)
not even just pitches with, but just a genuine relationship conversation having, they already know what companies do and they know how their product can implement with that organization. And so it really, you really have to take the necessary time to research and know the company that you're pitching to and really having that core plan of saying based off this workflow. Now there's certain information you may not know.

That's of course proprietary information. Companies aren't going to share it publicly, but there are key things that you can see and you can identify looking at someone's workflow, looking at their website that you can take a look at and you can actually get as much information. It's like an interview, right? They tell you to learn, understand the business that you're working for. How does your AI product help with this customer issue based off who you know, based off the relationships you've built?

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (59:00.214)
Right.

Alisha Joseph (59:11.866)
keyword relationships, understanding how that product, your AI product will help in that capacity. Because a lot of the time you may be offering something and that company is nowhere near there yet. And unless you're going to help them and show them how it's going to help them and not just give nonsense, vague answers, you're going to get a miss every single time. And I've seen a lot of leaders like lately been extremely frustrated by that.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (59:24.707)
Hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (59:39.598)
I've seen it myself as well. And I heard so many stories that you have heard as well. It's like people, they don't even know what they're offering. They don't even know what their problem they're trying to solve. And because of that, they're just reaching to everybody without even knowing that if that's a potential customer to you, you know what I mean? It's like, what are you trying to solve, right? For once and for all. That's what we all are looking for when you're reaching out to us. It's tell us how

Alisha Joseph (59:58.152)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:00:09.294)
your product can facilitate or improve our operations. That's first thing first. That's where everything should get started. I agree. I agree 100%, Ali. And the next group or question is to those policymakers, shaping the loss of the future. What would you like to tell them as far as what would you like them to focus on?

regarding AI.

Alisha Joseph (01:00:42.598)
So when it comes to policy, the policy cannot be set in stone because we have to look at a couple things here, more specifically quality. You could put a policy in place, but depending on how you're utilizing the technology, how long you are continuously learning because LLM models, it takes a process for them to learn to process. And you have to think about it as you think about like

and our body's core makeup as a human, right? These things come together to essentially build the whole makeup of a human. It's the same thing with these learning models. It's pieces of information on top of pieces of information that it's processing at such a quick rate, and then it's executing a resolution, okay? Sometimes that resolution is not going to come out 100%. So when you're thinking about policy,

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:01:19.874)
Hmm.

Alisha Joseph (01:01:38.234)
Think about overall quality. That may even require you to take some quality calls, do some things, calls or conversations with customers yourself. So that way you can understand as it's being learned and as you're teaching that model, it might not come out 100%. And so when you're making these policies, there should be some form of leeway. There needs to be a way that you can have some wiggle room with that policy where it's not just

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:01:56.898)
Hmm.

Alisha Joseph (01:02:07.372)
stringent on this is it, that's all, right? And I say that more so with exactly, yeah, and it's compliance, right? Because I know it's a little difficult with compliance things, because with some companies, depending on its finance, you know, there's certain regulations. And so those are also things that you have to take into account. So it's still a learning process, but it's not being so rigid.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:02:10.604)
Yeah, there's no one-side pizza. Yeah, absolutely.

Alisha Joseph (01:02:31.647)
and really trying to make sure that there is some wiggle room because there's going to be mistakes and error. And you don't want that to be a bad customer experience, but you also don't want that to be a bad experience for your employees, right? Because that can count against them if certain information wasn't given, but there's a stringent policy that says, this has to be done. That can really cause some friction as well with your teams.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:02:38.197)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:02:58.04)
Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree, And last but not least, what would be your piece of advice for a young Ali reflected today and in this new future with AI? What would you tell Ali, the young version of Ali, that it's just growing up today and in the future? What would you tell her?

Alisha Joseph (01:03:24.269)
Say as soon as possible, learn about technology. Understand AI, right? You may not get it at first, but absorb that information as much as possible. It will definitely help you as the companies and as different industries redefine. So not even just with contact centers, but just other industries in general. We're seeing it more in medical, we're seeing it more in HR.

We're even seeing it more in to some degree in groceries. I've called AT &T the other day. Was it AT &T? I think it was AT. Yes. AT &T took a payment from me via AI. I didn't need a customer assistant. They didn't have, I didn't need a customer. That AI was sharp. I mean sharp, Michael. It was sharp. I said, okay. I went to Wendy's one day.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:04:14.158)
It was quick, Ame!

Alisha Joseph (01:04:20.963)
Okay, and it was like hi, how you doing? Welcome to Wendy's. How can I help? It was not a person it starts with AI and they will now they're starting to take your order

Learn! Absorb! Because when I say I was confused, I said, sir. Thank you for, it was not a person, it was AI.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:04:44.75)
It's so confusing, Ali. mean, this conversation, makes me laugh because now they are even on, they have voice AI. So it's like the voice that you hear, it's even human beings and they're using the voice and it's the whole thing is AI. And you think you're talking sometimes with a human being when you're not. I mean, it's like, my goodness, what's going on? Where is this heading?

Alisha Joseph (01:04:49.091)
you

Alisha Joseph (01:05:10.945)
Yeah, I think Taco Bell got it too. Would you like to use your app code? Then the person comes on. How can I help you? Wait a minute.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:05:16.974)
Who is who? You're just confusing right now.

Alisha Joseph (01:05:23.146)
You

Learn it. Absorb it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:05:27.15)
this is hilarious. And if you allow me, the only thing that I will tell a young Ali today is one of the things that I, and you know that I've told you this before that I love about you and what you say, just live a little. Don't forget to live a little, right? We all need to in this new future, just whatever you're doing with everything going on, just try to live and enjoy life when you can. Cause that's still what's keeping us humans at the end of the day, basically.

Alisha Joseph (01:05:44.544)
Yes!

Alisha Joseph (01:05:56.128)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:05:57.836)
Yeah. Ali, my friend, thank you one more time for coming and joining us today for sharing really your brilliance, right? Your warmth and your leadership with us. I really, really appreciate you having and taking the time to be with us today.

Alisha Joseph (01:06:16.363)
Thank you. I'm so glad. feel good. Yes. Thank you, Michael. Thank you.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:06:20.206)
Thank you, thank you. Really appreciate it. And really, if today's episode really moved you, go ahead and share it with your friends, with your family, with your loved ones. Tag someone who leads with heart and follow us, the Human Protocol, wherever and whenever you listen and join us every week as we stay human while building the future with AI. And last but not least, remember that the code

may change, but our humanity will continue to be the constant on this story. Thank you all for joining and see you all next time. Thank you.