Ep #10 - Brave Conversations: AI, Change, and the Human Side of Work w/ Neal Travis

Full Episode Transcript

This is the full recorded conversation from The Human Protocol Podcast, published by The Human Protocol Group. © 2026 The Human Protocol Group. Please link to and attribute the original episode when referencing this conversation.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (00:03.112)
AI is transforming how we work, but the hardest part really isn't the tech. It is talking about what it changes, what it threatens, and what it reveals about us. Today, we're having a brave conversation about change, the kind of that reshapes people, culture, and leaderships. Welcome to The Human Protocol, the podcast about staying human while building the future with AI. I am your host Mykel Salomon. We are at a real turning point where companies write algorithms, governments write laws, and someone has to write the human story. And this is what this space is and will be about. Every week, we explore at the intersection of technology, leadership, and purpose, uncovering how values, meaning, and impact endure in a world rewritten by code.

Today I'm joined by Neil Travis, the head of customer experience at the Academy to Innovate HR, an e-learning company in the HR space where he supports the end-to-end customer journey and support the customer support and community teams. He came into the role from the front lines, joining the company at 8 People as a support, especially himself. And they are now 105 across the organization.

So it's been a really interesting journey for Neil and the whole company. On the side, he spends a lot of time with the CX community, where I'm a big fan of his work, and hosts the growth support podcast and blog taking about a career in support and scaling customer operations. Neil, my friend, welcome to the Human Protocol.

Neal Travis (01:56.152)
Thank you so much. really appreciate you having me.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:59.04)
Of course, of course, it's a pleasure. And thanks for taking the time and having these conversations with us today. And to kick things off, I would like to start with a question that I ask every single one of our guests, which is for our audience to get to know you a little bit more, but more the person that Neil is behind the LinkedIn bio, you know, what shot GPT knows about Neil, who is Neil at his core when you remove everything that we know about Neil.

Neal Travis (02:27.278)
I think this is a great question. You mentioned this just before we started recording. I was like, my goodness, I'm gonna have to answer this. This is gonna be an exciting one for sure. If I had to strip away everything, I would just say that I really like to be involved. I like to be active, whether that's getting involved in projects at work, building my own things, exciting ventures on the sides, and just being a part of watching people collectively grow and build around. I think that's...

is what energizes me, that's what brings me energy. I like to be a part of the action in that sense and be a part of the thinking process when it comes to new ideas. And I really love brainstorming with people, flushing them out, being the sparring partner for people who are trying to push their thought process a little further. I think if I had to boil it down to that, it would be that. At least from a personal energy standpoint, from...

A family standpoint, I got two little toddlers, wonderful family at home, so it takes up the majority of my time, which I love spending. yeah, yeah, really, really.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (03:34.14)
I can only imagine they're keeping you busy, buddy, right? Great. Thanks for sharing that with us, Neil. Much appreciated. And when we first start discussing about the opportunity of having a conversation, right, on the podcast, and I was sending you about the message of what we're trying to pass along, you told me, listen, there is some brave conversations.

that are probably happening today and will continue to happen in the future more and more about how we're going to navigate as human beings with our people, with our teams, right? Through what this AI disruption will look like for us. So I know this is a topic that you are very passionate about and this is why we're having this conversation today. But I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about

What is a brave conversation that really changed you as a person and as a leader?

Neal Travis (04:41.869)
As a leader and as a person, think that there are a couple of things before the entire global AI transformation, I would say, I think has really had to shape how I think about growth and development when I think about the workplace and I think about my teams and people wanting to grow in their own careers. think some of the brave conversations that we've had to have around that is I'm somebody who

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (04:50.592)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (05:09.363)
really, really wants to see everybody grow. I want to see everybody have the opportunity to be able to push forward and to be able to have that opportunity and any opportunity that they can to be able to develop themselves and take on new and exciting opportunities. And as a part of being a leader, I have the opportunity to give that to people. But some of the most difficult conversations are interesting.

that I've had that's had to shape my perspective is how do we grow where there might not always be an opportunity because from being a bridge between the organization and personal goals there needs to be a mutual and beneficial benefit to being able to grow in that way. I think that really shapes some of the conversations that you have around professional growth and development in the organization as people

want to grow, want to give them opportunities to, and also opportunities to practically realize that growth as well. I think those are some of the biggest conversations in general, where it's not always possible to give somebody that opportunity, but you want to.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (06:21.088)
Right, those are always kind of very sensitive and touching conversations to have, especially when the outcome may not be what people expect from it. But that's really our role as leaders is also trying to navigate the best we can through those uncertain times, right, as we all are with AI. So in a way, it also makes me think that the psychological safety

of what we do as leaders coming to play more and more. How do you work through those times? What's kind of your approach to try to have those brave conversations with people when maybe the outcome is not what they may expect?

Neal Travis (07:13.357)
think that the most important thing is to be genuine and honest about it. I think that if a lot of people beat around the bush for some of these conversations or try and tiptoe around a particular subject, it can make it even more difficult to unclear. think bringing clarity and bringing a genuine and honest approach is one of the most important. That doesn't necessarily mean be mean about it or, you know, just be super blunt about it.

But it does mean that when you come from a place that is with genuine respect for the person and the best interest for them, even if that might not be possible or there might not be an understanding, I think the clarity is key. Really making sure that we're upfront about what the outcome is going to look like. There's a framework that I really like to use and it is pretty much really setting up the conversation for this is what I'd like to

talk about and be upfront about the topic that you'd like to speak to and the outcome that you'd like to get it by the end of the conversation. So really framing the conversation, getting the end goal set, you know, as a North Star for the way the conversation will go. And then also getting the other person to agree and want to have that conversation. I think that's a framework that I've seen around that I actually really like just for more difficult conversations.

But I think in general, if we want to have these conversations, it doesn't help anybody to be unclear about it or beat around the bush. I think it's the kindest thing to do to be clear, to be honest and be genuine about the way that you're going to have that conversation, regardless of what it is. There's something that you mentioned about navigating AI and what that future looks like in terms of some conversations around that.

I'm sure we'll get into it but I have some thoughts there.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (09:10.91)
Yeah, that's actually what's coming next. As we, as we are going to start focusing now into, into what brought us together into this conversation, which is, how people are navigating with, with AI and those tough conversations. So I was curious if you have already started having those types of conversations within your teams as people gets a little bit scared of what's going to happen, right? With AI, especially.

Neal Travis (09:13.583)
Hahaha

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (09:40.128)
because everything, a lot of what we see in the news is how AI will take all our jobs, which I don't agree with it. I don't think that's really what's gonna happen, but it's the type of conversation that we all need to have because things will change, right? Our jobs as we have it today, we're probably not gonna be the same in the future with AI. So did you...

have already started having those conversations within your teams, even colleagues, for example.

Neal Travis (10:12.301)
Absolutely. I've absolutely had those conversations and I think that there are three levels to it, to this type of conversation. I think the first level is will AI take my job? I think to some degree and in some particular areas and in some situations, it might. You've seen it across the globe where unfortunately the reality is in some cases it might actually do that.

I think that people should be less afraid of that and a bit more afraid of the second level to the conversation, which is if AI doesn't take your job, I would be less worried about that and more worried about someone who can use it well doing it instead.

I think that's the usage and being able to actually leverage the new technologies that we have today as a core competency and skill and having the fluency of what this means for the future will be a key component of any role, any job that you have. and I do believe that that will be something that people should take as a sense of urgency around. People should believe that they need to.

develop these competencies in order to if they want to keep continuing and growing and developing in their role so that they don't potentially get replaced by somebody who is much more effective or productive at using the technologies unfortunate reality of what will be the future it is a technology that's here to stay maybe not in its current form but it is here to stay it's a new norm I think that there is a third

level. And that third level to the conversation is, it hasn't taken my job. It's totally fine. I've developed the competencies and I've developed the skills to be able to use it. And I think the deepest conversations that I've had with colleagues and with teams in some areas is

Neal Travis (12:20.203)
I've had my job and I love my job because of the things that I am able to do. AI has come in and has now been able to replace a lot of the actual activities of that role. Where, you know, I really, if you're a writer and you really like to write, but now AI can do that. And instead of being the one doing the activity of writing, now instead you're an orchestrator of the thing doing the job.

where it might take some of that joy and satisfaction out of what you're doing. And I think that the deepest question from an existential type of side of things is will I still enjoy my job in its new form? And I think that's the third level to consider in this conversation that is the most sensitive to deal with when it comes to personal satisfaction, enjoyments of your job.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (13:10.336)
Thanks.

Neal Travis (13:13.773)
Those are the types of conversations, least the three types of conversations that I've had primarily with colleagues and teams and how we're trying to navigate and address those situations.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (13:26.314)
It's interesting you bring in this topic, that's third point. It's really key to the future of work. And it is one that we don't talk a lot about. We all are in one way or the other technologies, we like technology. We are human beings at the end of the day, so usually human beings, for the most part, they don't...

accept changes, right? Coming our way as just accepting everything. Sometimes we are reluctant to accept changes. This will change our lives, will change our work. And you touched on a very valid topic, which is if we are not going to do what we're passionate about today, and our job will basically evolve into something completely new that we may not like.

Is there any option for me? What would be my personal and professional satisfaction moving forward? For us in technology, because we are used to changes and new technologies every day, we may be going through an easier path for us to just jump into whatever this new era with AI is. But for those that are not working with technology, that are very passionate about what they do and how they do it,

And now this new technology will force everyone to rethink the way things are done and they may find themselves in a spot that they don't like to be or they don't want to be. It's going to be a hard conversation to be had. But as you know, everything in life, sometimes we have to go through and navigate through those uncertain waters and try to find the best where where we can.

I think that's a very valid point that we don't talk a lot about because our jobs, our roles will change.

Neal Travis (15:30.67)
think that there, yeah, there's an exercise that I do typically with people in their onboarding phase in general. And I think it's a good exercise to do every once in a while with people, but when it starts coming towards these critical moments of really rethinking and reflecting on what you value in those changes, a really simple exercise that I like to do. And actually we did this leadership training a long time ago and it comes from that and I keep continuing to use it because I personally thought it was really nice.

Um, on one side of the paper, you think about, you draw a line down the middle and on the left side, it's these are things that maybe other people find really important or that they really value that I don't find important or less valuable to me. And then on the right hand side, it's these are things that I really value personally. Um, or the things that I find really important. Controversial way to put this, it's like putting pineapple on pizza. Some people.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (16:27.486)
Hmm.

Neal Travis (16:27.873)
they like it. What's the pineapple for them? And what's the side of it that I really prefer and what I like? So whichever side you land on, it's their own personal preference, but you decide which toppings go on it, right? It's this kind of concept, but the thing that it makes you realize or the thing that it should help you to think about is if I really value this set of things, and I would encourage people to really think about what those things are.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (16:42.932)
Yeah.

Neal Travis (16:57.741)
how can I continue to do those things in the new reality and the way of working? Because if you do this exercise and you sort out these things and you feel that, you know, because maybe there's new technology, AI, the technology that we have today, it can free my time up a lot to be able to focus on more meaningful things. What are those meaningful things that I'm going to spend time on?

what are the values that I have and the things that I get energy from and find really important? And how can I connect those dots between what are the things that I spend more time on and the things that I value? And hopefully that there's a match between the new availability of time and the new arrangement. And you find a way to grow into that. I think that a skill that will be really, important for the future is job crafting, where you're kind of creating those opportunities for yourself.

I think that'll be a really, really important skill for the future.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (17:59.226)
One way or the other, it's going to take some adjustment, navigate through uncertainty. There's going to be a lot that we will probably be learning on this path. No one knows everything. We are all learning one way or the other. Even if you're using AI today and you have been using it for months, there's still a lot to learn. And I think our role as leaders, as we move along, is just try to keep our people as, you know,

with communication as good as possible as to how we are navigating through these changes and what may happen in the future. And hopefully try to find, start to finding where people's skills and new skills will match business needs in the future, right? And hopefully also trying to fill in the gaps where professional fulfillment will still be present in this new future with AI.

Because as it is for you, it is for me as well. It's something that I pay attention to it because this is still a job, but we want everybody to kind of enjoy what they do. And we don't know if people are going to enjoy this new way of working in the future, but that's where part of our jobs will be trying to find what still motivates people. And maybe people find new skills and new things that they may not even know that they will like.

that they would be doing, for example, which I think that's still at the end of the day my hope, that people start realizing that this new technology can open doors that before they were closed because they didn't have the skills, right, and may kind of open them to be more creative in the future with AI.

Neal Travis (19:49.933)
For me, I've always described myself as like, I'm a really good with automation and process, but I can't code anything. I can read, I can understand what it's saying, but I can't actually write it. I'm not great with API. I'm not great with webhooks, all these things. And that's always been a bit of a barrier from some of the things, but I absolutely love solving problems and solving these challenges and figuring out workarounds.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (20:09.877)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (20:19.892)
ways to do things and by developing and utilizing, yeah, unlock that barrier a little bit for myself where I can actually get past that and actually solve more complex problems, which I absolutely love to do by leveraging it and using it, which is great for the teams because that means that we have new cool things that we weren't able to do before now done. And for me, it is more enjoyment because I get to solve different kinds of problems, but

That's a very, I think, common one that you'll hear because a lot of people don't have that skill set necessarily. But at the same time, it will be something that hopefully people can find more of these types of use cases to engage themselves and find that enjoyment.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (21:10.72)
Yeah, that's the, that part. It's also what excites me about it's like I'm doing things today that maybe in the past I was not going to be able to do it because I didn't have the skills myself. Right. And so AI is like your personal assistant in many ways that even if you are not a good designer, you still have some, you know, the tool can, can help you bring to visualize.

Whatever those ideas that you have in mind, you only need to get started. And that's what I tell everyone, just get started. Start putting some ideas that you want to accomplish some of your goals and the tool will help you to move forward. You're not going to get stuck, but you, we all need to get started working on it. And that's when you're going to start realizing and your creativity will play a huge factor on it.

Because the more you work on it, the more your brain will be active and thinking and trying to find new ways to do things better or trying to come up with new ideas. And that's really my hope, Neil, in the future is like more and more people, the more they use this, the more they start thinking and being more creative in ways that in the past they couldn't do it by themselves.

Neal Travis (22:31.852)
think you mentioned something very interesting, considering people using AI and being able to leverage their technology, and they get more creative, it activates their brain and continues to help them. And I would reference MIT's study, what happens with people's brains and usage, and also really think about how you use it. And I think it's really important because

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (22:58.527)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (22:58.764)
In some cases, you can use it like you mentioned, engage yourself, activate it, discover more, be able to take yourself further and take that critical thinking to a new level.

But then there is that danger of relying on it too much and just taking it at face value and pushing things. it did it for me, it's done, it's easy. kind of letting your brain take that back step a little bit. I think that's a big risk that you see if we as leaders also think about how that plays into our teams. Just really encouraging teams to use it as a tool. And as a tool itself, I had a school

teacher in high school and he said something about calculators at the beginning of every year. He said you know the calculator is just the tool. It can definitely do the math but it shouldn't be your you're all seeking answers. It only knows what you input into it and what it's doing. It doesn't know how to actually solve the full full full problem that you're trying to do.

So don't get over reliant on the tool. At the end of the day, that's all it is. And I think that is a sentiment that as we move into this new technology and phase that I still continue to think of, it doesn't know the outcome, it doesn't know the context, at least at this moment. And that's something that we should play into mind is that we are the ones that are engaging that full process and using our critical thinking.

to max the outcomes rather than just, yeah, here you go, it's done. I didn't think about it much, but it did it for me, so it's great. So I think that's a risk that we run if we encourage too much. think it's about using it in the right way and engaging people.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (24:42.324)
Responsible use for sure. It's like, I was talking every time I talk to friends about it, it's like, don't use it for copy and paste. This is a tool, it's subject to errors, right? It's not perfect and you don't want to lose what makes you you, right? It's like, if you're creating content, if you're using it to get answers on projects, whatever, make sure that you go, you review it and only when you feel that you still

present on that, that's when you should continue with it. I wouldn't recommend it to just lose the driver seat to AI because that's when we humans, we're going to be in big troubles. The day that we let AI to take control of everything, including the outcomes, and we are not part of that equation as we should, that's when I think humanity will be in trouble.

Neal Travis (25:20.811)
you

Neal Travis (25:37.65)
Wally predicted this years ago.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (25:40.096)
I I try to think about it when I'm having this conversation. But I hope we don't get there. I really hope, and I really hope this type of conversation that is trying to keep us in the loop really resonates with people that it's still us. And we should not let this work kind of, you know.

Neal Travis (25:47.903)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (26:06.058)
taking care of everything, including our decision making. That's really my hope.

Neal Travis (26:14.668)
Yeah, indeed. think it's something that's like I have some people around who also just say, oh yeah, Chachi, you told me this, you told me that, you told me this. Like they say it gets the source of truth. And I'm like, yeah, did you verify it? Do you know if that's it? Like you can't, it hallucinates in cases. You just make sure that it's something that you verify.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (26:21.215)
Mm-hmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (26:32.638)
Yeah, you can trust, but verify, right? I think it doesn't get all including with AI. I know everyone is hearing about this getting smarter and smarter and smarter. Yes, it's still, if you want to trust that it's fine, but verify that's still very valid in times of AI for sure. Whatever we do. Perfect Neil. So now.

Neal Travis (26:35.916)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (27:02.832)
As this whole conversation continue to accelerate, right, and we're probably going to have a lot of questions in the future. What is keeping you awake at night as far as being as ready as you can be for your team on having those sensitive and tough conversation about what this new feature with AI may look like?

Neal Travis (27:32.757)
I think having the capabilities myself is something that I also worry about. Not necessarily that I worry that I can't do it, but that I'm also in the learning process. think that something that is underestimated is that everyone is going through this process. Of course, people are at different stages and at different areas.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (27:51.744)
together.

Neal Travis (27:54.217)
We recently had our first AI Hackathon internally here at AI HR, which was awesome. It was a really exciting event. was super energizing. Everybody was going all in and we had project ideas that we came with at the beginning of the day. We made teams, everybody signed up and we went and we tried to see how far we could get with our respective projects. It was really, really cool to see all the different levels of people.

Our engineering team was just like, yeah, we're just going to do business as usual because they're already quite advanced with it. Really, really funny to see that and the different levels there. think one thing that I ran into when I was there and in the activity and I actually turned to my boss and I said, yes, how things were going with the teams I was working with and what I was doing. And I was sitting there and I was telling him like,

actually building the agents and doing the actual workflows. And I was also learning and building, you know, I was building first agents and things and automated flows. I was super excited about it. It's a new skill for me. It's going to unlock a lot in the future. But a lot of people were asking me for advice and, know, what does it mean? How can we do this? And what can we do with that? And I was also trying to build and learn at the same time when I told him.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (29:02.997)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (29:18.634)
building it and everything is fine. If I could sit and I just put headphones on and I could focus and I can do it, that's great. When you add in the team elements and the pressures, and I think this goes for a lot of leaders, is that you are looked at as that leading example. And I would hope that a lot of leaders who are preaching this to their teams that they do lead by example. The pressure of being seen as that expert when you're also in the learning process is a bit of a friction point.

And I think as a leader and as a part of that, it's really important to be clear about, I'm also going through this process. We can discover it together. We can experiment and try new things and we can go through it. But for me, what's keeping me up at night is a little bit that like pressure of being seen in the capacity. I don't consider myself an expert. I'm all for learning and trying it out.

But when people see you in that way, I think it's bit difficult.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (30:19.338)
Yeah, no pressure at all. And you, you now that you're talking about this, you made me think as a, haven't kind of stopped to think about it. okay. It's a, with everything going on, we usually don't think about how we also are part of these transformational periods. And we are also figuring things out.

Neal Travis (30:20.78)
You

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (30:44.222)
Right. But of course, our teams and the people that reports to you are always looking up to us for answers. And sometimes we don't have the answer and sometimes the answer is not ready. And those are those type of brave conversations as well that I think we're going to we're going to have when we don't know the answer. We the answer will be no, we don't know it yet. And it should also be totally fine as we are trying to make sense of what's going to happen in the future that sometimes

the answer may not be ready at the time people expect from us. And it's very important that we also understand that that should be acceptable since we are also figuring things out together, right? One way or the other, even though people always look up to us for answers at any time, but sometimes it may not be possible to provide an answer to our teams at that time.

Neal Travis (31:42.989)
I definitely agree with you. think that there's an addition to that that's really important, especially in the context of leadership. And I think it is okay anytime, just not every time. Because I think that uncertainty causes concern and doubt with teams. And if everything is a bit uncertain, because we talked also at the beginning of this conversation about job

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (31:59.125)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (32:12.542)
uncertainty. And if there are decisions and un-clarities that are made throughout the organization, anytime it should be okay to say, I don't know yet, but we're going to figure it out. Or at this moment, we don't have an answer on that. But it should be the responsibility to go and get that clarity and that answer. As well as think about how do we make sure that we can try to address that upfront.

where teams don't continuously go through a cycle of uncertainty without ever getting that closed loop of clarity. I think that's really important step in the process.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (32:45.119)
Right.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (32:50.762)
Yeah, and I totally agree. But the way I see it more, it's kind of the strategy part of everything going on and that will continue to happen is definitely not us. And that needs to be clear, right? The how to, the implementation part of it, that's part of the conversation that we may not have all the answers at once, but people, yes, definitely they need to understand what is the overall strategy, right?

And that's the type of conversation and message that we should not leave for three months from now. We all should be working internally in our organizations to better understand what is the overall strategy and how our people fits in within into this new future with AI. So I was more referring about, yes, this is the overall strategy, but how are we going to get there? And sometimes the implementation part of it is

what we may not have all the answers right now, basically.

Neal Travis (33:55.475)
Definitely. 100%.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (33:56.576)
Yeah. So how do you keep people optimistic, right, about this new feature with AI in times where people may not be because they are hearing and listening? You know, some people like to exaggerate. I have to be honest with you. I'm an optimistic person myself. I really think this will unlock a lot of benefits.

but I'm also a realistic person myself. I know this will create challenges for us. And depending on the human being, and you know that Neil, there are human beings that are optimistic by nature. There are others that are pessimistic by nature. So as we navigate these brave conversations with our people, how are you keeping yourself optimistic?

And how are you navigating with those more maybe pessimistic team members that are looking just at the negative side of this future?

Neal Travis (35:04.364)
Optimistic I think about all the giant list of backlog things that I haven't been able to touch because they haven't been possible or nobody's gotten to them and they've been Deprioritized and I think hey now I can get all these things done is great But for me that's how I stay optimistic for me I love new challenges and new problems to solve and figuring things out and tinkering a lot and things that you know, I

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (35:17.258)
So AI will help you with the backlog.

Neal Travis (35:34.9)
Obviously I have my day job. have everything outside of that. I also have things that I would really like to do. I don't have time for that because you know, full-time role and family and everything. So for me, it does unlock the ability to be able to do the things that I like to do at a of a faster speed and with the limited time that I have because I can kind of continue to keep up with that side of things. So for me, that's what is energizing. And I like to brainstorm and yeah.

tinker with a lot of that stuff. And I think that I am a bit of a early adopter in the sense of trying to learn these capabilities and skills. So for me, I'm fairly optimistic about the ability and things that we can do and the organization and to the teams we can deliver. I think that for pessimistic team members, luckily,

In my teams, we've had really good conversations and I haven't had to have difficult conversations with people who are very pessimistic about it. But I do think the types of conversations that I've had have been more around people who don't see the opportunity around it, where they think, it's not possible because we don't need this.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (36:53.6)
you

Neal Travis (37:00.555)
Or we don't have this capability or I wish it could do this, but I don't see how that's possible. I think there's a barrier of knowledge to be able to sit down and show them how it's possible and see what is okay. think if I did have a very pessimistic team member, what I would do is I would sit and I would really think about doing discovery. What makes them feel that way and try to really get an understanding of what is driving that impression and that feeling.

if that's just something that they naturally are attuned to, or if there's something in particular that would be a catalyst for that. And try to address that upfront and think about what are the things that we can do to either, you know, get you to a place where you can be happy with that, or what can we do to, you know, get a better understanding or come to a mutual, I would say, agreement on what that looks like.

At this stage, it's not something that has become a go or don't go type of conversation at all. think at some point those conversations might arise based on skills and capabilities and what are there. And I think people should be realistically prepared for it. As I'm saying this, I also have to recognize my own journey through this entire transformation and process where in my own organization and even looking at myself a year ago,

everybody was saying, yeah, we can do all this. was, it was all AI hype, which is really, really exciting. And I had a bit more of a realistic perspective of our systems aren't ready for it. We're not ready for it. We can't do necessarily all of these things. And looking back, I think I should have been more, excited about and more, tinkering earlier about some of those transitions and changes. even though I still to this day think.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (38:49.876)
Mm-hmm.

Neal Travis (38:57.129)
We still need to do a lot with our systems to make sure that we're fully ready. But at the same time, there are a lot of opportunities where it can be applied and useful right away. So looking at my own journey, I was also one of these more realistic people. I understanding the opportunity and what is real today and what is possible, then we can go from there.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (39:20.372)
Yeah, and it's fine to be realistic always, right? Because sometimes we want to just jump into everything that we hear. And sometimes our organization from people's standpoint or from our internal technology stack tool are not ready for that. Our processes may not be ready for that. So it's not like a one size fits all. Everybody at the same time jump on this. It will solve all your problems. That's when, you know,

leaders like you come into play and you analyze your organization, what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. And even at that time may not be ready, but you start looking at what needs to happen from your perspective to start implementing that into your business model, for example. But it makes you think about them.

Right? Once you started reviewing that, even though you were realistic, but at least it made you think, hey, for this to happen, probably a lot of things need to be in place first. But at least that conversation started. And it makes me think what would be our message for this community, great community that we're part of, which is the customer support community, where

I still see and feel that there is a lot of organizations and support leaders that are not on board totally on it. What would be your message for those customer support organizations that still don't think or like the idea of having to coexist with AI in our support operations?

Neal Travis (41:05.099)
I think that they're missing a big opportunity, straight up. Even if you're not implementing a customer-facing version or use case, there are so many use cases and examples where you can make your own teams more effective and efficient, where you can help to leverage automation to make sure that things progress in a further way, where we go from simple

action and task type of automation to now more advanced automations that can unlock a lot of those opportunities and propel you into the future. I think that you all have a hard time scaling as quickly or growing as quickly as you'd like if you're not adopting it. And for some organizations, that's okay. It's not within their priorities and their goals and that's okay for them. But if you are looking to really try to be efficient and scale.

and grow with the organization and be a strategic partner like a lot of support leaders really are pushing for. It is a huge opportunity to make sure that you can do that in a more effective way.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (42:15.198)
I can agree with you more on that. And yes, I understand the concern of putting something in front of the customer. We all need to take all our due diligence before we deploy and put something in front of the customer. I'm totally on board with that. But as Neil was saying, start with having these as your people's co-pilot. And start uncovering how this can help.

your organization and your people to be more efficient, right? To gather more insights by being your co-pilot and being the backend of things, not working directly with customer. Start step by step, review where it makes sense for your organizations. I also agree that if you are not doing it today or thinking about implementing in the future, you're missing a big opportunity. We're going to see a lot and a lot more of

organization deploying this type of solutions to work as basically your teams plus AI in a way, right? And it will unleash a lot of what I call, and I know that I'm an optimistic person, superpowers for our people to bring more visibility to our people that they did not have before, right? The amount of data that this all can gather.

before our people need to jump on call with customer, imagine how well prepared our support agents can be by having the help of an AI working alongside on support issues. So if you are not thinking today about implementing it, please take the time to review it because concerns, we all have concerns.

but we will have to navigate through it as much as possible. And any questions reach out. There's a lot of people in the community like ourselves that already started in this journey. And of course, we can always share best practice and ways to hopefully alleviate some of the concerns that you have. But I think it will be a missed opportunity if our people don't start using it as soon as we can.

Neal Travis (44:30.899)
I'm raise my hand when I say something. I'm all for maximizing this opportunity and the new age of things and adopting it. I will say as well that there are a lot of foundational things that you probably can do without it that could even propel you into the future. Leveraging it will help, but for example, if you give a really, really fancy, really cool tool to somebody who has no idea,

how to use it or isn't set up for success, they're probably not going to be able to leverage it fully and to its full potential. But if you give it to somebody who really deeply understands the tool or what to do with it, then they can take you from zero to 100 really, really quickly in that sense. And I think there it's also something to consider. One, how do you set yourself up for success? And do you have the foundational pieces in place?

to really make sure that you are good to go, which doesn't necessarily require AI, for example. And how do you set your people up for success to be able to then take it much, much further and elevate it in the future? I think that's something to consider. Just make sure that you have all your, I would say, ducks in a row with foundational structures and pieces before. But yeah, then definitely go for

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (45:53.822)
Yeah, for sure it will require a mindset shift, right? This will also transform how we look at things, right? The legacy customer support angle of looking at issues and managing our operations is about to change. I'm not sure if it's happening with you yet, but with me, it's everything that I look at, I'm looking from an angle of...

If I'm having this technology helping us to run more efficient, then we need to try to use it also to fill in the gaps that we may have in our operations, right? What are those processes that may be obsolete that we did not have the time in the past to go over those? AI for sure will kind of, you know, bring it to our attention. It will find those obsolete...

processes that they should not exist anymore, but we didn't have time in the past to really dive in and see what makes sense today or not. It will push us to review all our processes and see what is it that really makes sense in this future with AI as far as our support processes to continue to use. If not, then we need to have new processes put together that really makes more sense because it will kind of bring that visibility to us right away.

Neal Travis (47:20.075)
Yeah, you wanna see all your outdated documentation? Just put a chat bot on top of it and start asking questions. Find out real quick.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (47:22.528)
There you go.

Now, you're all documentation that you don't know if your customer ever looked at it or your people ever use it, then it will bring it to your attention. You're really still using this? No, I don't think so. You don't need it. Yeah, there's so many use cases right now that we can spend hours talking about, but really the message is take a look at it. Don't just say no. Concerns are concerns, but we have to go through it.

Neal Travis (47:46.943)
Yeah, absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (47:57.744)
learned with it and try to, you know, get the best out of it. Like in any situation, right? In your personal life, professional life, that's really what our approach should be always.

Neal Travis (48:11.563)
Absolutely.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (48:13.446)
All right, Neil. So getting closer to the final part of our conversation today, it's one question basically, but for four to five different groups. Okay? But it's really just one question for multiple groups. And I'm going to start with the first one, which is what would be your piece of advice for those individuals, Regular human beings.

that are not leveraging AI today at all. They may not even know what AI means. What will Neil tell them?

Neal Travis (48:51.559)
Educate yourself. For sure, I think there are two parts to it. One, start understanding terminology, phrases, and fluency around it. Specifically, for example, Anthropic has a free course for AI fluency. What is it? How can you leverage it? And some things around it. I think it's really great. Just for general terminology and what it means for you. Really, really educate yourself and at least dedicate some time to it.

I had some people who, when put in a conversation of people showing how they were using it, came back afterwards and told me, I feel so behind what's happening. And I think for people who are not or don't understand it, educate yourself and intentionally do that. The second part of that, get your hands on it. I think one of the best ways to learn about it is to use it and experiment with it.

I would shout out somebody from the support communities. Mariana with Mellon Labs is doing educational experiments and labs to help people better understand what's possible, which I think is great. I think it's a really cool initiative.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:05.728)
Yeah. Educate yourself. Get messy. That would be my message. Don't be afraid. You're not going to break anything. And even if you break it, it's not going to be the end of the world. But that's the only way for you to learn any technology, like starting a new language. You have to go through it. Practice, practice, and practice more. And that's really what's going to start setting you apart on understanding.

Neal Travis (50:10.036)
Yeah.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (50:33.32)
what are the benefits of using and leveraging this technology in your personal life and also as part of your job, basically.

All right, so what would be your piece of advice, Neil, to organizations navigating through trying to understand if and how they can implement AI in their business processes?

Neal Travis (51:02.215)
If we're talking about general business processes and not specifically support, I think that there are probably many, many, many use cases across the board. think maybe even just start with your backlog list. Like I mentioned before, what are all those things that you wish you could have done in the past, but haven't quite had the capabilities to do and think about that. think so.

One of the things and maybe some context is AI Char is also going through our full AI first transformation. We started back in May and we've really been, the title of it is All In on AI, which I think is a great title in some aspects, in some areas. think there's also some considerations there. But for businesses and organizations who really are thinking about it,

I would think that there is also the same educational piece. One, educate themselves about what's possible and what's out there. Number two, when you say get messy, I think the best drivers and teaching you what's possible within your organization will be the people and being able to actually enable them to be successful with it and have them show you the use cases of what is potentially possible within your organization and set them up for success because they will know what the opportunities are.

When you're thinking about how to set people up for success, it will come through various different types of supports that you should give as an organization, which I think is like, you know, on a base level, formal training, give them opportunities to learn and build their own fluency. Number two, create a way in which they can get hands on with it and experiment with it within safe guard rails and bounds.

and educate them. think getting, having some variety of types of learning, so you know, giving somebody, hey, here's a course, here's a module. It's not going to create that transformation. Being able to have a variety of different types of programs where people can get hands on. For example, we had our hackathon, which was great, think really educational for a lot of people. But it also propelled the organization forward because all of the projects that were created were to move

Neal Travis (53:19.434)
certain things forward or create new things that wouldn't be possible before. So I think really supporting your own people and they'll show you the opportunity.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (53:29.76)
Absolutely, and make sure that those leaders in charge of reviewing, delivering, implementing these solutions are also learning, right? Because there's nothing will happen if those in charge of making sure the rest of the organizations are getting on board. If those in leadership positions, they are not embracing AI, it's going to be hard from cultural aspect of the organization for the rest of the people to get on board.

So that, for me, it's also key for organizations to follow. And what would be your piece of advice for these AI companies working on AI products and services? What would you like them to focus on as far as things that you would like their product to be more focused on?

Neal Travis (54:26.346)
I think one of the, I'll start with an irksome point from it. There are so many organizations out there now that are popping up. think you see a very, very big startup boom because it's very easy for people to create these products. If you look at, for example, Base 44, millions of dollars sold.

It is one guy, right? Is being able to actually build a product in an organization from the ground up from almost nothing is now possible. I think that creates an environment in which things feel cookie cutter, which is quite common. And for me personally, when I get an email in my inbox that says, oh yeah, we can cut X amount of tickets for you almost instantly. I think that there are some...

considerations to keep in mind. You don't know my tech stack, you don't know my setup, you don't know what we're doing. You can guarantee that kind of thing. But they all feel about the same. For AI organizations, I think what I would love to see is instead of pushing the use case and what's possible and just that, I would love to see more collaboration from those organizations who I think will do very, very well.

You see some of these organizations really in touch with the community and their users and people who are doing really good things. At the same time, think really understanding the vision behind it. Why are you building this AI tool? What is it going to actually help me to achieve, not just as an individual, but in the larger scheme of things? I think if you look, for example, at two different organizations,

Intercom and Help Scout, they took two very different approaches to addressing their AI products. If you think about Intercom, they say the future of customer service is AI first. And if you look at Help Scout, they say that the future of customer service is still customer first. And it just depends on how you leverage the actual use case and how you want to implement and talk about it from a holistic standpoint and a view.

Neal Travis (56:48.414)
both sides are doing great things and amazing things. I think that it really just comes down to the values that you put behind whatever product that you're doing. I'm one of those people who really considers organizational values and what their purpose is and what their mission is as a part of the product. I think that's important.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (56:51.551)
Yes.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (57:10.664)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's great. From my end, I would like these AI companies and products to spend more time on testing. I really think that's an area that because everybody's doing things very differently and there is not a lot of standards in that aspect. I really would like everybody, if you are an AI leader,

Neal Travis (57:20.808)
Mmm.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (57:37.236)
please make sure that your company and your processes invest more time on really testing, testing, and testing. That's what I really would like, that type of approach as we move more and more into this future. Neil, for governments and regulators, what would be your piece of advice regarding safety and ethics concerns? What would you like to see on that space?

Neal Travis (58:05.61)
I don't necessarily think I'm in a position to really speak to that super heavily. I stay quite out of the conversations around those topics in general. But I do think from a safeguards and regulations standpoint, understanding, I think one of the things that I've had in general over the years around what organizations or governments should do, I think that

implementing it. I think the government should also not lag behind in that sense, where educational systems really important to make sure that they also stay up with with new technologies and are also adopters. Where if the educational system of our new generations are still continuing to teach in the same ways that they did ages ago.

we won't move forward and I think there needs to be some adoption of that within the process. I think I would love to see more educational system improvements specifically, leveraging the new technologies and the things that we have today. I don't think that the new generation will even learn in the same way that they did before, given the new technologies. If I think about somebody coming into the workforce now, they're already immediately thinking AI first.

with this mindset versus somebody who's been in the workforce for a very long time who might not have adopted it and I think that is a very strict mindset change that needs to happen. So from a governmental standpoint, think really focusing on the educational system of the next generation is going to be really, important. I feel very existential saying that. It's just a weird, weird feeling. I think general...

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (59:50.784)
An important one though.

Neal Travis (59:57.935)
making it digestible for people. think that especially with new technologies like AI within itself and the technologies and the language around it is already complex enough that when you start talking about also what you would call legalese and government language around it as well and regulations and what it means, think people need to be able to practically understand what it means for them. And I think that's an important step, but that would be a difficult one to change.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:00:07.583)
Right.

Neal Travis (01:00:27.21)
You

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:00:27.494)
It is, especially with the million news about AI every day, that is hard for us to catch up. Imagine for those that are not even working with technology or used to technology as we are on a daily basis. Totally valid points. And last but not least, what would be your piece of advice for a younger Neil, right? Reflected today and in the future, what would you tell that kid today or in the near future?

as we are embracing this future with AI.

Neal Travis (01:01:04.072)
master it before it masters you. think that's a tagline of, I think Ruben Hussein on LinkedIn as his tagline. think it's something that really stands before. think it's something that, you know, just keep a learning mindset and don't close yourself off to new opportunities and ideas. I think keeping an open mind towards what is possible and trying to do discovery and understanding it rather than just staying ignorant around it.

I think is a really, really important thing to do.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:01:36.946)
Absolutely. Keep yourself in the driver's seat. That's really what we need to tell everyone. As far as we are in control of it, right, then we will have a shot at really making sure that the future, it goes along as our plans as much as possible. So Neil, thank you very much for being here with us today. It's been a great conversation that I've enjoyed tremendously.

I really appreciate how you have shared your insights, your heart and your voice with us. This was an easy and much needed conversation on topic and one that really doesn't happen enough. for all that, really thank you. I appreciate your time today. Yep, absolutely. Thank you. And if today's episode really sparked something in you, make sure that you share it with your friends.

Neal Travis (01:02:24.426)
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

THE HUMAN PROTOCOL PODCAST (01:02:35.08)
and your loved ones, right, your colleagues, and follow us, the Human Protocol, and join us every week where we try to answer these questions. What does it mean to stay human while building the future with AI? Thank you all for joining, and looking forward to seeing you all next week. Thank you. Bye-bye.